New PvP vs. PvE vote.

[Ironman]

Hi All.

Forgive me for doing this to you all again. But I seriously think we should have another vote on this matter.

The problem is we had a vote before anyone had played the game so no one knew what they where voting for.

As I see it there is LOADS of different opinions floating around on what the big different is between the two server. The hype word being "Gank". But what does that actually mean? Even there ppl don't agree.

I will not taint the text here with my personal opinion. I'll just put my vote in. If you feel like commenting on this vote please feel free to do so.

[Shinigami]

I prefer PvE since there seems to be plenty of options for fights against other players there, but without the involuntary ganking, quest interuption and general annoyance once the retail servers are flooded with pre-pubescent kids with an evil streak.

[Jega]

I have only played on the PvP and liked it, voted for PvP

[Veth]

if we start together on pvp it will not be as hard if we start on pve and then decide to go to pvp. we will have our chars as high as the rest of the realm and we will be able to fight back if we are ganked. i don't want to start on pve before i haven't seen the situation on the pvp servers.

[FuSs]

PvP all the way. im 99% sure i will loose interest pretty fast if we play pve.

also the biggest mistake we could make is to start on the pve server, see that it sucks and then switch to pvp while all others are already level 40+

[ForakExertus]

Played both PVP and PVE and I enjoy PVP more

[Gromagrim]

Having played both PvE and PvP, I found the PvE experience to be more satisfying and certainly more true to the feel of the game. PvP seemed to have much more of a 'Quests are just there to get me stuff & xp to make me better at PvP' feel, which I feel misses the point entirely, also I feel there's a far greater chance of people getting disheartened faster on PvP due to constant PK and an inability to solo anything (there will be times when we're going to have to do things by ourselves).

Having played PvE all the way through in Beta, I'm still excited to start again from scratch and get back there, knowing there's still months of new experiences once you're there, and no content lacking compared to PvP. I also know a huge community from Beta who will be ataying PvE, and I'd like to remain with them.

[Madcat]

i also have fears about being "ganked" all the time on pvp server like it happens in some (most?) pvp oriented Mmorpg's...But, i know that the few pvp fights i had on the pve server (not talking bout duels) were a blast and even if u can still have some pvp on pve, that did piss me off to see some undead ( or gnomes for that matter :p ) walk around my land and can't do anything bout it...pvp makes it more real, nme territorry = constant danger which is only fair enough i'd say...

+ i trust Blizzard to make a good job about focusing higher players on other things than just "ganking noobs.Only the travel distance to reach nme low lvl training grounds not to mention that u have to go thru their high and med lvl training should make it happen rarely


Anyway if we have to choose the wrong kind of server and then change we'd better go pvp for a start,i'd rather catch up the rest of the server on pve than pvp :(

@iron m8 good idea to restart the poll imo but i'd say it's even better to w8 end of open beta so even more people can "really" vote

ok that was supposed to be short answer to explain my vote :D,well at least u know what i think

PS do we forbid gnomes in RL ? ;)

[Ironman]

Anyway if we have to choose the wrong kind of server and then change we'd better go pvp for a start,i'd rather catch up the rest of the server on pve than pvp :(


I really don't think for my part that that is going to that big an issue. Because I'm not going to play 25 hours a day like some 14 year old kids guild is, so they'll reach level 60 WAY before I do.

And I know you all say that it is easy to avoid PvP on the PvP server. But from what I've read and seen I really think that the PvP server will ruin my game experience.


@iron m8 good idea to restart the poll imo but i'd say it's even better to w8 end of open beta so even more people can "really" vote
Yeah of course you are right there.
In the end we might even decide to actually split the Legion on two servers. (Insert flames now). But seriusly think about it. Atm. we have 3 games:
WoW.
PlanetSide
CS:S.

Why not go for four games?
PlanetSide.
CS:S.
WoW - PvP.
WoW - PvE.


PS do we forbid gnomes in RL ? ;)
I hope not. :D

[FuSs]

Why not go for four games?
PlanetSide.
CS:S.
WoW - PvP.
WoW - PvE.


because guild names are going to be unique on the server cluster.
the name Renegade Legion goes where most people vote for.

btw about all this ganking fuss: i play the pvp server for more than 1 month now. i started when every enemy had their lvl40+ chars allready.
and i can count the times i was 'ganked' on one hand.

i wouldnt give a shit on what you read in the american forums. take a look at planetside and you see what i mean.
you should better try it out yourself.

[Peete]

Voted for PvP as well, I like the adrenaline you get when you're in a contested territory.
Just FYI, if you're ganked too many times and your corps camped, you can still contact a GM ingame, beacause that is harrasment which is forbiden.

[Nyana]

PvP for reasons mentioned in the old forums

[Ironman]

Just FYI, if you're ganked too many times and your corps camped, you can still contact a GM ingame, beacause that is harrasment which is forbiden.

Yes you can. But have you ever tried to get hold of a GM? Even in this closed beta I've had to wait for around 1-2 hours before getting hold of a GM and I've done that 7 times now. So good Luck.


because guild names are going to be unique on the server cluster.
the name Renegade Legion goes where most people vote for.
And? We can still create a similar looking name. The good thing about starting on both servers is that if ppl find out that they've made a wrong choice they can switch over and have some highlevel support.

btw about all this ganking fuss: i play the pvp server for more than 1 month now. i started when every enemy had their lvl40+ chars allready.
and i can count the times i was 'ganked' on one hand.
Good for you m8, good for you.

i wouldnt give a shit on what you read in the american forums. take a look at planetside and you see what i mean.
you should better try it out yourself.
I know that there is some big whiners in US and I agree with you there. But there is still a bit of truth in it.

[Peete]

Yes you can. But have you ever tried to get hold of a GM? Even in this closed beta I've had to wait for around 1-2 hours before getting hold of a GM and I've done that 7 times now. So good Luck.

I contacted a GM once, he answered me in less than 10mins
Ok, it was a french GM, maybe they are less busy :)

[Shinigami]

Once the game goes retail reply times will probably go up, I don't know if it's only the whiners, but it seems that it takes hours or even days to get hold of a GM on the US servers.

[Daymare]

Iron mate, you seem to already have decided that the pvp server is evil :)
I saw you around for about an hour, then you never came back. I can not believe that this was because you got ganked a hellofalot of times. Now, I sugest that you try again when the open beta starts, join me, disturbed and a few others that are going to roll up new chars, and see how it is really like.

I can understand that you really do not like the thought of corpse camping, but to be honest with you, I have NEVER been corpse camped.. I have been ganked a coupple of times, but thats about it :) And the reason for that was because I attacked them first, seeing that they were in alliance lands :)
Remember you can not be attacked there at all unless you attack first.

[Jega]

Yeah Daymare got a point about alliance territory still being safe on the PvP server. If you enter a contested area or attack an enemy, you will be PvP tagged for 5 mins after your last PvP action (e.g. leaving the contested territory, killing or being killed by an enemy) If you're not tagged for PvP the enemy cannot attack you in alliance territory, so ganking in low lvl alliance territory is not gonna happen if you don't tag yourself for pvp.

(I hope that I understood that concept right, but if not.. feel free to flame :))

[Shinigami]

While it's true that alliance zones keep you safe from ganking, you only really quest there up to level 18-20, which should at most take you a week. As a human, you can complete most quests in Elwyn Forest and Wesfall in 3 nights, then you have to enter contested lands like redridge or duskwood.

[Ironman]

While it's true that alliance zones keep you safe from ganking, you only really quest there up to level 18-20, which should at most take you a week. As a human, you can complete most quests in Elwyn Forest and Wesfall in 3 nights, then you have to enter contested lands like redridge or duskwood.

/signed. Just my point.

And it's not only the corpse camping I on about its the fact that I might be dooing a really hard quest and I've just killed the big guy. Then a rogue sneaks in and backstabs me when I'm very low on health. That prevents me from getting that bosses head that I need to complete my quest. Sounds VERY enjoyable doesn't it?



Iron mate, you seem to already have decided that the pvp server is evil
I saw you around for about an hour, then you never came back. I can not believe that this was because you got ganked a hellofalot of times. Now, I sugest that you try again when the open beta starts, join me, disturbed and a few others that are going to roll up new chars, and see how it is really like.

It is EVIL :eek:

And OK I didn't play my char up to level 40. But still I think PvP might become VERY bad once we get helluvalot of ppl online.

I've been killed a few times on the PvE server (By a horde player) and every time I got PvP flagged by accident and it ruined some of my time there. Some horde players was preventing our group from entering the Scarlet Monestary.

And one thing more. If they would just give some loot or xp from killing Horde players then the time fighting those Schlags wasn't wasted as it is now.

[Madcat]

the fact that I might be dooing a really hard quest and I've just killed the big guy. Then a rogue sneaks in and backstabs me when I'm very low on health. That prevents me from getting that bosses head that I need to complete my quest. Sounds VERY enjoyable doesn't it?

agree that would indeed sux but would that happen very often? and i hope u'll have other legionnaires by your side helping u out if you're on a hard quest
i know i would anyway, as i know i would have never got into Uldaman without u pvp or not ;) it just makes the targets a bit smarter (for some) and fun :D


And one thing more. If they would just give some loot or xp from killing Horde players then the time fighting those Schlags wasn't wasted as it is now.

On that part u're right, for now.... there will be reward for participating "honorable" pvp.the way i got it if u want the high lvl pvp reward gear and mount (as hero classes later on i guess) u must reach highest honnor levels and comminting "dishonnorable acts" as ganking nmes 20 lvls lower than yours lowers it

i only played on pve for now (mostly to get used to the game in a safer environment considering i arrived at the end of beta) and i might be thinking wrong about the pvp server but it will always be time to get back to pve server...

[Shinigami]

I might be dooing a really hard quest and I've just killed the big guy. Then a rogue sneaks in and backstabs me when I'm very low on health.

It's what rogues do. Unlike shy who might be protected by the 'Oh-noes! it's an invincible paladin with 3 lives'-syndrome, ( ;) ) I can no longer count the number of times I've finished a monster and a rogue backstabs me from stealth and I'm on low health before I know what the fuck happened, and it takes a miracle to get back in the fight and beat him.

On the PvP server I've been flattened by gank-squads several times, usually while being outnumbered or out-levelled. The one time i did participate in a PvP fight with Shy, Forak and Nyana I felt really bad about it since we were basically ganking horde players who were fighting monsters or just running about - they gave no indication that they were out to kill alliance, and the so-called babysitters that we fought we probably just higher level horde players out to protect their low-level players from being ganked by a group of low-life alliance gankers (=us). I never went on one of those PvP excursions again.

I've never had problems with people camping my corpse, they usually move on to find other low level players to gank...

[Ironman]

I might be dooing a really hard quest and I've just killed the big guy. Then a rogue sneaks in and backstabs me when I'm very low on health.

It's what rogues do. Unlike shy who might be protected by the 'Oh-noes! it's an invincible paladin with 3 lives'-syndrome, ( ;) ) I can no longer count the number of times I've finished a monster and a rogue backstabs me from stealth and I'm on low health before I know what the fuck happened, and it takes a miracle to get back in the fight and beat him.

On the PvP server I've been flattened by gank-squads several times, usually while being outnumbered or out-levelled. The one time i did participate in a PvP fight with Shy, Forak and Nyana I felt really bad about it since we were basically ganking horde players who were fighting monsters or just running about - they gave no indication that they were out to kill alliance, and the so-called babysitters that we fought we probably just higher level horde players out to protect their low-level players from being ganked by a group of low-life alliance gankers (=us). I never went on one of those PvP excursions again.

I've never had problems with people camping my corpse, they usually move on to find other low level players to gank...

You must have read my mind there. You've tried it and I've imagined (sp?) it!

[FuSs]

pve is war against a computer
pvp is war against a computer and an AI (artificial intelligence)

on pve you know where the enemy is.
you know the kind of monster which is around that corner in that instance.
you know the kind and the location of your enemy.
you know the damage they do.
you know the respawn rate, their specials and almost everything else.
you even know how many monsters gonna attack you if one mob is able to flee and call for help.

sooner or later you will know everything about every instance.
e.g. in gnomeregan:
our group leader told us where to go and when to go 'hug the right wall, it pulls less monsters' 'stop! dont go across this line, 5 elite ones will spawn...'

this kinda game becomes boring damn fast.
but if you always have to watch your back (at least outsides of instances which are still enemy free) because a random enemy could jump on you then the game stays interesting.
then its not only the stupid mob which is 100% calculable but also the artificial intelligence which could attack you anytime and everywhere.

see the enemy players as a part of the game. you cant talk to them, you cant trade with them and they are absolute incalculable.
they have human skill, they have their own talent build and individual equipment.

PvP is a challenge !!!
while pve is always the same

[Peete]

And it's not only the corpse camping I on about its the fact that I might be dooing a really hard quest and I've just killed the big guy. Then a rogue sneaks in and backstabs me when I'm very low on health. That prevents me from getting that bosses head that I need to complete my quest. Sounds VERY enjoyable doesn't it?


You can still loot the corp even if you die to a horde player 10 times in a row.
I've been ganked some times, but my corps has never been camped, so don't be afraid. ;)

[Paradine Hawk]

Have voted for PvE server for the reasons ironman has stated.
Having played on the us servers for a few months now I have found the PvE server better suited to my style of game play.

However will probably have a char on both servers if PvP is the choice.

[Ironman]

pvp is war against a computer and an AI (artificial intelligence)


Correct me if I'm wrong but AI is as you said artificial intelligence and that is not a human player. :D

[Ironman]

You can still loot the corp even if you die to a horde player 10 times in a row.
I've been ganked some times, but my corps has never been camped, so don't be afraid. ;)

At some point the corpse will disapear. :eek:

[Peete]

True, but not as fast as in PS :p

[Shinigami]

The Ongoing Harassment policy does not apply on the PvP server when there is a PvP resolution available. Characters have the ability to deal with their conflicts through combat, and Game Masters will only involve themselves in extreme circumstances.

Actions that would typically be considered "dishonorable actions" are considered PvP mechanics and are not considered harassment. Corpse Camping and repeatedly attacking and/or killing an NPC are examples of things that are not harassment.

From a GM reply sent to a player on a US server. Very uplifting, especially since he was playing on a PvE server. If that is blizzards official position, there is not much hope of getting GM help with harrasment such as corpse camping.

[Nyana]

You can still loot the corp even if you die to a horde player 10 times in a row.
I've been ganked some times, but my corps has never been camped, so don't be afraid. ;)

At some point the corpse will disapear. :eek:

There are hundreds of other quests to do, take a fishing skill and wait for the horde to leave. Alliance peeps will do the same to horde as well, and that's just the fun in combat you should always be on full alert, imagine going to Amerish and you can't attack the Vanu there because it's their homeland. The only thing PvE is good for is admiring the scenery and that's about it.

[Gromagrim]

take a fishing skill and wait for the horde to leave. Lol, and I thought PvP was the high-adrenaline gameplay experience!

Sorry, sarcasm wasn't really necessery. I've just been looking at the map to see that Redridge is contested territory, and walking distance of the Steppes. After a bad BRD/BRS experience, it'd take all of 2 minutes for an irate Lvl60 Horde player to get in amongst the lvl 15 Alliance players there, and ruin lots of people's days.

I've still heard nothing about PvP that would improve my experience, and so much that would be detrimental to it

[Nyana]

Alliance and Horde are sworn enemies, if you've played all the Warcraft games you know a bit of the storyline, if not read the story on the official site, very interesting and nice to read story. But what is the point if you cannot attack your sworn enemy, only look at him passing by and leaving his footmarks in the sand of your own country. It's like Germans all over our beautiful Dutch beaches making holes and claim it, and we can't do anything about it :D

OK, last piece was meant to be funny, no hard feelings against germans :)

[Nikodemus]

I think we might have to accept that we consist of both "Carebears" and "Gankers", and that we can't make everyone happy by all going to the same server-type.

I'd honestly rather go with a few to the PvE server than follow the majority to the PvP server. I know for a fact just how pissed I get when I get ganked in any sort of RPG. I simply can't stand the cowardice - and I don't appreciate the interruption in my carebeargaming either.
I played Diablo 2 just for the PvE and the occasional consensual, orderly duel for more than 2 years and didn't get bored. I enjoy the whole process of levelling, doing quests, gathering items, managing the inventory and all that stuff quite a lot - and I appreciate a good duel every once in a while.
But any sort of chaotic free for all fighting in an RPG? sorry, I just don't enjoy it. It always comes down to the same thing : people take the fight when they know for certain they'll beat the others ... if there's any doubt, they run off or get ganked trying. It's about using the dirty tricks better than the opponents, and has nothing to do with a proper, wellbalanced FIGHT.
It was like that in D2 and L2 and I don't see why it should be any different in WoW. Human beings are cowards and sore losers by heart, and an online game with few restrictions is the perfect place to play by it.
I'm certainly not going to grind my ass to level 50 on the PvP server just to find out wether I'm right or wrong - that's just too much of my time wasted on what I'm positive will be ... just that. A waste of my time. Sorry.

[Nyana]

If you see a red healthbar in PS you shoot the crap out of the guy right? If you step out of a spawntube from a zerged based you get instagibbed by 10 dual-cyclers or hundreds of lashers so that you have to spawn in a tower miles away or even at the sanctuary. I don't get it that you don't feel angry when you're low on health in PS and get killed for that, and you do feel angry when the same thing happens in WoW. I pay my monthly fee for some action and if I want RPG there's always Ultima or SWG or whatever.

[Nikodemus]

Huge difference being :
Planetside = FPS. It's about shooting the crap out of players.
It's also very skillbased. A jackhammer in the hands of a BR4 hurts just as much as a jackhammer in the hands of a BR 20.

WoW = RPG. There's levelling. Gathering. Quests. Selling stuff. Buying stuff. Going for tough encounters for the challenge. I actually quite enjoy all those things, and get annoyed when I have to spend extra time on it because something (such as a horde member) gets in my way. Especially if it's some coward who plays by the (lack of) rules and strikes when I'm weak.
Also, RPG PvP is a lot about levels, class and gear. I don't enjoy beating up people because I happen to have a spell that's good against their best attacks or a cloak that offers resistance against their damage ... or a higher level or whatever.
I enjoy beating up people by outthinking, outmaneouvering, outdodging and outshooting them.

[Shinigami]

I agree that there is no comparison between PS and WoW, they are completely different games. If you had to go to Amerish to gather 20 clips of lasher ammo from the lockers in the bottom of towers, you might be a little annoyed if the VS kept killing you and preventing you from doing that ;)

The poll seems pretty even now, which puts us in quite a dilemma. Either we split the legion in 2, or we start on a server and force some players to play a gametype they are not really interested in - this might make them annoyed with the game, thus generate less activity and possibly leaving the legion for another guild on the server type they would have liked to play on. Splitting the legion is also a shame, since I'd like to play with everyone of you :(

[ForakExertus]

Yes it's really a problem :(

[Nyana]

Sorry to be stubborn and unfriendly here, but I am going to spend my money on PvP no matter what the Legion chooses, I can't find my gamestyle in PvE. I'm not going to join other guilds as RL since RL is my home :) I try to make a 1 man Guild for those who want to flee PvE and come to PvP :)

[Gromagrim]

I think 2 guilds is really the only way to go, these votes have been in no way unanimous, and forcing people one way or the other is just going to lead to resentment ('I got ganked 15 times today, I told you guys PvP was a bad idea!' or 'Lvl 60 is so boring! I want PvP!' etc.) So splitting the legion seems the only way. Despite not being a PS player, or a member of RL, I've enjoyed my time in the PvE guild, and would be more than happy to keep that constructive guild behaviour into retail.

Which brings us nicely into the next argument - who gets the name, I know both default leaders (Ironaman and Shy respectively) will want to keep the name ad traditions, but you really need to find a fair way to name both legions without reverting to 'I'm taking the name, and that's FINAL!', which seems to be the level of discussion that gets entertered into here :D

So what alternatives are there? Obviously RL will be the favourite, but what about adding NC to the front 'NC Renegade Legion', or '284th Rapid Response Unit' or the latin version of the name, or............ you guys decide :p

[Nyana]

Renegade Carebears & Renegade Gankers :)

[Nikodemus]

"Renegade Carebears" :)
(don't know if we can, though, the server wouldn't allow "Cuddly Carebear Club")

[Ironman]

I say let the PvP have the "Renegade Legion" and the PvE will take "The Renegades".

And I do think we need to split the Legion. And lets not take it as a bad thing. But rather as an opportunity. If ppl want to switch over there will be someone there to help them get started.

[Jega]

As Shini stated, I hate that this is happening, because I really want to play with all of you guys, but not everything is that simple :/

[Shinigami]

/Agree with Iron - Renegade Legion & The Renegades (or just Renegades)

[FuSs]

then we do it that way.
create a pvp and a pve guild.
it was never our policy to force people to play a certain way and we wont do it in the future.
even tho its a bit sad to split up over 2 servers...

[Nyana]

Just make sure you make a char on both servers and log out in a tavern so the xp bar gets a nice buff if you decide to play on the other server again :)

[Ironman]

Just make sure you make a char on both servers and log out in a tavern so the xp bar gets a nice buff if you decide to play on the other server again :)
Yup. Was planing on it. :D

[Madcat]

well now it's more about who u wanna play with then (well for me that is...)
hard question.. anyone got a coin to flip plz?

[Veth]

well now it's more about who u wanna play with then (well for me that is...)
hard question.. anyone got a coin to flip plz?

find the playstyle that fits you most. :p

[Peete]

WTF can you do with two 7-men guilds ?

[Madcat]

recruit?

[ForakExertus]

with the sponsor system? :p

[Ironman]

@Madcat Just do a /random 100 next time your ingame. If the result is 1-50 go PvP if it's 51-100 go PvE.

@Peete I know for a fact that more than the 7 ppl that voted for the PvE server is going to join us there. Don't want to write their names though. I'll let them announce it. :D
And on top of that I think I've got 2-3 new candidates for RL as well. :D

[JojoTheSlayer]

@Peete I know for a fact that more than the 7 ppl that voted for the PvE server is going to join us there. Don't want to write their names though. I'll let them announce it. :D
And on top of that I think I've got 2-3 new candidates for RL as well. :D

This is just the kind of thing we where supposed to have a vote SO
IT WOULDNT HAPPEN. The point was to keep the RL's together and that the peps that didnt get what the most wanted, its the same game, would honoure the vote and join RL on that server whit there main char. Just like the Alliance/Horde vote was for.

Now becuase the peps that wanted PvE lost the last post they start saying "lets have two clans" and "no matter who winns the vote we will still go PvE"!!!?? Realy nice.... Some of you mite now be looking at what I voted in the last vote, but let me tell you that no matter what side won I would join it because am a team player.

Look at poletics. IF a party splitts they both are not the same party anymore and I, for RLs sake, thinks its a bad idea to have two WoW guilds on the same site competing against each ohters for the same bunch of members. The result will just be two weak guilds instead of one good.

No more peps have played the game now than it was at the last vote. Having a new vote AFTER Final Beta would be more suited. To me I view this vote as result of peps not accepting that they didnt get what they wanted.
Making the choice "to try to make everyone" happy will just weakan and harm us in the end.

Whats next? 4 WoW Renegade Legion, 1 PvP Alliance, 1 PvE Alliance, 1 PvP Horde and 1 PvE Horde?


I vote we all should honoure the first poll result and if all failes us in that choice, have a new vote after Final Beta which result, again, all should honoure.

[Shinigami]

Jojo, you can't force people to play a gametype they don't enjoy. It will only lead to them quitting sooner or later. In the previous vote, there seemed to be a vast majority who were for PvP, and I think some people, including myself, thought that if a strong majority wanted to play on PvP, we would follow, even though that wouldn't have been our first choice.

Lately, more people have actually tried the game, and concerns have been raised about the PvP system. You must also remember that the rumoured dishonor-system that was meant to prevent ganking has been pulled by blizzard since the last vote, meaning that low-level players are now fair game.

I don't like splitting RL into two anymore than you do, and I think it's a damn shame that it has to go this way, but since there are now more than a few of us who are sceptical about PvP, we should have the right to voice our opinion and I think Ironman was right to create a new vote. Just as many of the pro-PvP people have stated that they are not going to accept the vote anyway, just as you blame the pro-PvE people for doing.

Sure, we can have a new vote at the end of the FB when more people have tried the game, but it doesn't change the fact that some people have already made up their minds and are not going to follow the rest of the guild to whatever server that poll decides in favor of.

[JojoTheSlayer]

Now, shini, am not taking a PvE or PvP side here.

I want a united RL
, but am not blind to that if one side recruits more peps to there side from WoW and then calls for a new vote will get more votes than they did at the last poll.

Having 2 guilds in the same game is stupid.
Just like the reason we dont have RL PS on TR and VS as well.
Why? Well it would just make us weak in all departments.
How potensionaly harmfull it can be is just to take a back look in RL history and see what happend during the outbreak from the Watch This Space
(WTS). The Clan survieved Yes, but I dont agree setting up Clan game base that from the starts splitt us up and we recruit to two clans whiting the same clan.
( This is just a eg I dont want a debate on WTS. )
And am not trying to force anyone.
Just asking peps to think about the org consekvenses of there choices.
Just like when you joined RL we didnt force you to join NC. You joined becuase you wanted to play whit RL.

Now you mite say. "Yes, but now I AM in RL and youre trying to force me to PvE/PvP." Well to that I would just like to state a eg from ingame Planetside.
The plaoon leader, dont think me just a person in general, gives orders which he thinks are best suited for the "big picture", aka strategy not tactical. Now every player in PS can "choose" not to follow those orders if they dont agree whit them, but for one that wouldnt be RL like and second they also know that no matter what target, wrong or right, the platoon leader desided on. RL would stand a bigger chance at success if they went as a unit instead of randoms thats just agreed whit the order... In other words the diffrence between RL and the idiot zerg.

So the reason I want us to honoure the first poll is to prevent that oure Clan turns into a "idiot zerg" Clan. In this case its PvP that won, btw I think I voted "no matter what server" not PvP in last poll,...anyway we all should then go there and test it as a UNIT because that will increase the chanse of success for all members.

If it turns out to be the bad choice, just like som platoon leaders orders dont go to plan, we can have a new poll after Final Beta
( all chars will be lost anyway so you wont "lose" anything) and I will, no matter what wins, honoure that choice just like I want peps to honoure the first poll this time.

Jojo.

[ForakExertus]

Agreed Jojo.

Anyway, we can conclude that this vote is useless, close it or delete it. Everyone seems completed focused on their choice and will not accept an opposed outcome of the vote and if it does happen they will come up with other things (i.e. starting a new vote, making 2 guilds, whatever.)

2 Renegade Legions for the same game is pointless and I doubt it will work in the long run.

[JojoTheSlayer]

As a Moderator I can close this thread yes, but am not a dictator nor do I feel I have the "athorety" to do so.
That choice is a Clan Leader/Leaders choice to make. Becuas they are the only ones that can, to a limit ofC, dictate/make the last "order" in disputes like this one. ( Following this Poll or the last. )

Its time for a Clan leader, just like a Platoon leader in the fight, to make a choice of action. My view is clear, if I felt this choice was up to me I could ask a mod to close this thread and stat that Final Beta will follow the first poll, while asking RL's to honour it.

[Shinigami]

I think the fairest course of action would be to create a poll at the end of the open beta. That way, all the people who want to play the game have been able to, and we can then make an informed, fair and democratic decision. Things have changed since the first vote.

[ForakExertus]

But is democracy going to work this time? The 'losing' side will refuse to follow the majority as its looking now.

[Shinigami]

If we want to keep the legion together, people will have to follow the majority. But yes, I agree with you it seems that not all people will follow the majority vote, and if enough people don't follow it, we end up with 2 guilds. I just don't like to force people to play a gametype they don't really want to play. I will probably follow the majority, as my desire to play with RL outweighs the problems I have with PvP.

The way I see it, we have to do a new vote to be fair to the people who haven't played in the closed beta. The first poll was based on lack of experience and outdated information, and this poll solves nothing because it's nearly 50/50. Either way, renegade legion is not a fascist dictatorship, and people can chose to do their own thing, after all, they pay for their own subs.

[Fusion]

Ok here's my suggestion:

Everyone plays on the PvP server for the final beta. At the end of the beta we have a vote.

When the vote is decided RL plays on that server. If you want to do the opposite then the best thing is to find another guild playing the way you want.

[Shinigami]

I agree with you Fusion, I think that's best.

I'm just afraid we will lose a couple of players whichever way it turns out :(

[ForakExertus]

I like this suggestion, Ill follow majority anyway, and I hope everyone will eventually

[JojoTheSlayer]

Ok here's my suggestion:

Everyone plays on the PvP server for the final beta. At the end of the beta we have a vote.

When the vote is decided RL plays on that server. If you want to do the opposite then the best thing is to find another guild playing the way you want.

Agree 100%.

And Shini yeah this isnt a dicatorship, i could maby have used a better word or one that isnt so easy pre judged, but even free choice in real life in free countryes dosent mean you have "ulitmate" free choice. Speeding on the higeway mite get you in jail, even if you like it or not. Aka; jail not youre choice ;). Point is in a Clan as well as a communaty or sosiety there has to be some sort of consensus to rules and that these are followed by the peps that wants to take part in that Clan,communaty or sosiety.

[Nikodemus]

This is just the kind of thing we where supposed to have a vote SO
IT WOULDNT HAPPEN. The point was to keep the RL's together and that the peps that didnt get what the most wanted, its the same game, would honoure the vote and join RL on that server whit there main char. Just like the Alliance/Horde vote was for.
The point of the other post, as I saw it, was to get a feel of the people's oppinions. It got apparent rather quick, though, that there were plenty of things to dicuss and that many had voted PvP without even knowing what the PvP rules on the servers were.
It's not comparable to the alliance/horde. That's all just about looks - not about the way the game has to be played and the mentality of everybody on the server.

Now becuase the peps that wanted PvE lost the last post they start saying "lets have two clans" and "no matter who winns the vote we will still go PvE"!!!?? Realy nice.... Some of you mite now be looking at what I voted in the last vote, but let me tell you that no matter what side won I would join it because am a team player.
We're suggesting two clans not because we lost the other vote, but because we don't see how any of the carebears can ever enjoy the gank server or how any of the gankers can ever enjoy the carebear server.

Look at poletics. IF a party splitts they both are not the same party anymore and I, for RLs sake, thinks its a bad idea to have two WoW guilds on the same site competing against each ohters for the same bunch of members. The result will just be two weak guilds instead of one good.
I don't see us competing for members. Once we get going, we'll be recruiting ingame on the server we're on anyways.

No more peps have played the game now than it was at the last vote. Having a new vote AFTER Final Beta would be more suited. To me I view this vote as result of peps not accepting that they didnt get what they wanted.
Making the choice "to try to make everyone" happy will just weakan and harm us in the end.
Uhm yes, more people have played since then.
Furthermore : forcing people to one server type will weaken us just as much as those who are not happy about it will quit playing.

Whats next? 4 WoW Renegade Legion, 1 PvP Alliance, 1 PvE Alliance, 1 PvP Horde and 1 PvE Horde?
I didn't see a single person in the horde/allience thread giving that much of damn, so no.

[Nikodemus]

I want a united RL
I'd like a united RL as well - but I'd rather see people actually enjoying the game and not quitting because the server type is wrong for them.

Having 2 guilds in the same game is stupid.
Just like the reason we dont have RL PS on TR and VS as well.
Why? Well it would just make us weak in all departments.
It ain't the same type of game. We won't be playing on opposing factions on the same server fighting each other. Furthermore, clan "strength" figured in total numbers really doesn't have nearly as much to say as in Planetside.

How potensionaly harmfull it can be is just to take a back look in RL history and see what happend during the outbreak from the Watch This Space
(WTS). The Clan survieved Yes, but I dont agree setting up Clan game base that from the starts splitt us up and we recruit to two clans whiting the same clan.
( This is just a eg I dont want a debate on WTS. )
And am not trying to force anyone.
Just asking peps to think about the org consekvenses of there choices.
And you don't see an outbreak going on again if everybody goes to the same server? I assure you, there *will* be people leaving to either start on the other server type or quit the game if we all go the same place.

Just like when you joined RL we didnt force you to join NC. You joined becuase you wanted to play whit RL.
I joined RL after I already had picked NC, didn't pick NC to join.

Now you mite say. "Yes, but now I AM in RL and youre trying to force me to PvE/PvP." Well to that I would just like to state a eg from ingame Planetside.
The plaoon leader, dont think me just a person in general, gives orders which he thinks are best suited for the "big picture", aka strategy not tactical. Now every player in PS can "choose" not to follow those orders if they dont agree whit them, but for one that wouldnt be RL like and second they also know that no matter what target, wrong or right, the platoon leader desided on. RL would stand a bigger chance at success if they went as a unit instead of randoms thats just agreed whit the order... In other words the diffrence between RL and the idiot zerg.
When a platoon leader makes a decision for me in planetside that's a decision that lasts like 30 minutes. I'm planning to play this game for a whole lot more than 30 minutes - I have bloody 240+ hours logged already.

[Visionaire]

I just want everyone to be happy and together, so what's so funny 'bout peace, love and understaaaaanding?... Ehm... (plz kill me :eek: )(god I love that eek smiley :eek: :eek: )

I'll just follow the crowd, though I'm partial to PvE. Think voting should be postponed til after final beta ends. Gives us a better picture of things.

[Nikodemus]

Ok here's my suggestion:

Everyone plays on the PvP server for the final beta. At the end of the beta we have a vote.

When the vote is decided RL plays on that server. If you want to do the opposite then the best thing is to find another guild playing the way you want.
1) I do not believe that playing on the PvP server in the final beta will not give anyone an accurate impression.
First off: you won't know if there's any ganking problems at level 10 or 20 because you're still in safe zones. The higher the level you get the further away from "home" and the closer to the enemy you get.
Second : populations. I still haven't seen the closed euro PvP server with anything but "low" population. If you take a look at all the retail servers you'll see they're well crowded. Higher population density means you're more likely to run into people, friendly or enemy at all times.

I don't feel much like squeezing in 100+ playing hours over the short duration of the beta test just to be more certain than I already am.

2) "When the vote is decided RL plays on that server. If you want to do the opposite then the best thing is to find another guild playing the way you want."
Regardless of which way it goes this will cause several people to leave the legion to form up outside.

[Ironman]

Hmm Nikodemus must have read my mind. All the things he wrote in his last 3 post is exactely what I was about to write. :D

[Adelheit]

You always seem to assume that ppl. are always solo in this game ... i would rather quit the game for good than running around alone.

For a solo PvE challenge i choose KOTOR-ish games, but not WoW.

So, PvP all the way ... if it sucks, if there is no guild backup, no regular guild groups, no protection etc. i'll either look for another guild .. or go solo on the pve servers.

Untill then, its gotta be PvP for me.
/vote PvP

[Lyngs]

I second what Adel wrote. I am actualy surprised that so many vote PvE, and i dont mean that as an attack. I just thought every one in RL was hardcore action addicts, who put the difficulty level on insane before installing a new game.

[Nikodemus]

@Adel:
I solo some, and I group some. Tend to duo a lot actually (since that's the more fun and effective way of doing the solo-able quests).
In order to group up with some from the guild they have to be online, near your level, wanting to quest in the same areas etc.

The whole thing with guild backup and guild protection ... isn't constantly having to ask people to quit whatever they're doing and spend 12 mins on a griffon to come to your aid / constantly having to quit what you're doing and spend 12 minutes on a griffon to come to someone's aid just a bloody annoyance?

[Nikodemus]

I second what Adel wrote. I am actualy surprised that so many vote PvE, and i dont mean that as an attack. I just thought every one in RL was hardcore action addicts, who put the difficulty level on insane before installing a new game.
There's a difference between "difficult" and "frustrating" - the latter being what the PvP servers add.

[Lyngs]

There's a difference between "difficult" and "frustrating" - the latter being what the PvP servers add.to you its "frustration", to me its "get a bigger hammer, be more alert or stop soloing in the middle of the night and go to sleep!".
I totaly respect that you and others have a different view on things, but i just love killing gankers too much. Got that addiction from Lineage2 :)

[Fusion]

I voted for the "Follow the Leader" option. I'm split 50/50 between the two options, based on reports and thoughts the rest of you have been posting here (having only played the game for about 30mins I have no real basis to make a decision).
Regardless of which way it goes this will cause several people to leave the legion to form up outside. I think that will be fairly inevitable. However I would still like to see those people still hang about on these forums to chat.

I'm quite amazed at how heated this debate has been, at one point I was about to close the thread and ask you to come back and discuss it another time. However I think it is something that can be weathered and I hope you guys can come to a consensus without spilling to much blood. ;)

[Nyana]

@Adel:
The whole thing with guild backup and guild protection ... isn't constantly having to ask people to quit whatever they're doing and spend 12 mins on a griffon to come to your aid / constantly having to quit what you're doing and spend 12 minutes on a griffon to come to someone's aid just a bloody annoyance?

I did that almost everytime out of respect for my guildmates and I know how hard some quests could be. Just set your heartstone to the location you are and let someone summon you. If that isn't possible then it's griffon all the way, but that is what RL is about, to help the others whenever and where ever possible. You can't let your mates down, they never did that on Auraxis as well. If I am busy with a quest I asked if they could wait for x minutes and maybe try another quest first.

From Brothers in Arms: "We all drop together and we all come home together" :D

[Paradine Hawk]

when it comes down to it I'am not going to go for a play style that doesn't suit me. As for stating that we should all go with the majority, thats like stating every one who is in RL MUST play Planetside, even though we are a multi gaming community.
So I believe we have enough peeps, who look as though they are going to play WoW, to support a guild on the PvP and PvE server (even if they both can't be called Renegade Legion) and of course we will probably recruit more people on either server as time goes on making the Renegade Legion bigger and better.

[Fusion]

Can I suggest a solution:

We have two guilds: one is the Renegade Legion, the other Legion Renegatus (or whatever the correct latin is).

Hows that sound?

[FuSs]

pvp and pve is for totally different kind of person so i think its best to start 2 guilds.
i understand the reasons why some people dont like pvp and i tolerate that.
for me pve is a no go. stated my reasons often enough now.

you wont be able to convince hard core pve/pvp guys of the opposite.

we just need a proper name for the pve part of RL WoW guild.
i claim the name renegade legion for the pvp part because of the first poll (this might change during the open beta if the majority of RL decides that wow pvp sucks).

hope everyone is happy with that.


PS: new RL members who were recruited during the duration of the beta have no vote in the final poll.
this way mass recruiting of new players to change the result of the poll in the own direction is no option.

[Nikodemus]

I'm quite amazed at how heated this debate has been, at one point I was about to close the thread and ask you to come back and discuss it another time. However I think it is something that can be weathered and I hope you guys can come to a consensus without spilling to much blood.
I've had this discussion ("carebear" vs "gank") a few times before in other communities. This has actually been the most civil of them. :)

I'm still up for the two guilds-solution. It's the lesser of the three evils, imo.
i claim the name renegade legion for the pvp part because of the first poll
No objections from me on that part. I'll keep pushing for "Cuddly Carebear Club" for the PvE server =) (don't worry, the filter won't allow it)

[Maxice]

I voted PVP(not played the game) I get i buzz from PVP which i don't get from PVE,I am playing EQ2 atm which is PVE only and it just gets boring after abit PVE quests can be fun but they don't keep you on your toes like PVP.

[Veth]

i read the official forums a bit and i'm now also a bit afraid of the pvp server. my vote was mostly based on the dishonor system which should have prevented extensive lowlvl hunting. if blizzard doesn't implement a system against this kind of gankers (also corpsecamping lowlvl hunter are my favs as i read, my god what kind of human do you have to be in iRL?).

i'm going to play on pvp first though, in final beta and release. i'm really unsure now. :eek:

[Jega]

I was a bit worried that this discussion would lead to some bad blood between people, but luckily it didn't turn out that way.

I am very split between what server I want to play on. Being it PvP or PvE is a minor factor for me in this. I play (and plan to keep playing) WoW for the fun (I class many different things as fun). I have good mates on both "sides" and I would love to play with every single one of you, but I have a full time job so I can't play on both servers to keep up with everyone.

Another factor for me is that I have a real life mate and his little brother that I want to play this game with (I'm gonna kiss some ass to get them both into RL, at least the WoW section). I'll be moving in with him in a house he just bought and we are planning on playing WoW together, so it's more or less up to him what server we play on.

I do like a good PvP fight and like the adrenalin rush from a fair fight, ganking isn't anything I find to be a fun thing to do. But I also loathe the idea of me being disturbed while minding my own bussiness. The few times I've been ganked while trying to complete a quest have pissed me of quite a bit.

I got more to say, but no time... handball match in 5 mins.. cya

[TheIcon]

I'll just throw my 2 cents this way. Im mostly a PvE kind of guy, who likes to PvP from time to time when I feel like it. Thats the good thing about a MMORPG like DAoC, where the PvP zones and the PvE zones are split in two. One where you face challanges in PvE, geather stuff, level up, and skill up without having to fear that some other dude walks by and desides to have a gagfest on you and then give you and *asshat* after. And then a zone where its all about PvP, taking stuff from the others and controlling keypoints and defending stuff. On daoc's behalf im sorry to say that PvP only got really interesting after I lost my interest in common PvP one group vs. one group or Zerg of groups vs. one group. Should be better now but cba to go back.

PvP is fun, so is PvE. And I'd like to set a flag saying "today I pve, and if I feel up to it I pvp". I dont want to beforced into pvping because personally im here more for the quests/items/rpg/leveling part. Once they do the honor system and you can get uber items for having the right rank and stuff, then I'll start looking at pvp in a diffrent light.

[Daymare]

OK you nubins :) I sugest this agreement: Now in the FB.. TRY THE OTHER SERVER DAMNIT.. and for goodness sake, don't stop untill you are a bit higher level.. for example 20. If people are willing to do this, I sure will be willing to try the pvp server with the carebears just to see how it is.. I bet you my &/()#(&#)( that it's not as bad as neither side thinks.
So why not test it out, then decide?

[Peete]

You can totaly avoid PvP until lvl30 at least that's my experience.
The 1st time I had to deal with PvP was when I entered Strangelton, Highlands or any lvl 30+ area.

[Daymare]

By the way, there is nothing like beating the crap out of a high level character that just tried to gank you ;) best feeling ever. (and don't tell me it can't be done.. forak almost owned a rogue with 10 levels more in a normal fight.. hehe)

[TheIcon]

OK you nubins :) I sugest this agreement: Now in the FB.. TRY THE OTHER SERVER DAMNIT.. and for goodness sake, don't stop untill you are a bit higher level.. for example 20. If people are willing to do this, I sure will be willing to try the pvp server with the carebears just to see how it is.. I bet you my &/()#(&#)( that it's not as bad as neither side thinks.
So why not test it out, then decide?

Which is why im playing on PvP now :P I want to see if its as bad as I think it might be hehe. So far its not bad ... seeing as i'v been the one beating up the horde who randomly walk in to the darkshores, and I helped beat up a level ?? taur shaman in Redridge ... before he turned into a tiger and ran off.

Personally for me PvP is a love hate relationship:

I like it when I pick the time and place to do it.
I think its funny when it happens at random and dosent mess up the stuff I was doing at the time.
I hate it when I get zerged by a zillion +30 my level people on a gaging roll.
I hate it when a stealther stabs up in the back just before you get the killing strick on an elite/quest mob.

Some people try to drag the story of the Warcraf into it, I find that hard to do as there are pros and cons for saying that PvE is better in the whole storyline as you take the time to let the quests work their magic (fx. poison some orc encampment, or heal som elfs, or help an orc raid a elf settelment), and then have places of confrontations (battlegrounds). But on the other hand you do have two factions at war with each other, sometimes you run in the face of the horde in the fear of death. Other times you beat the liveing daylight out of that horde group that just pop over the ridge. Both server types go in with the story. (as long as they dont make a Co-op server where horde and alliance can group with each others)

[Nikodemus]

OK you nubins :) I sugest this agreement: Now in the FB.. TRY THE OTHER SERVER DAMNIT.. and for goodness sake, don't stop untill you are a bit higher level.. for example 20. If people are willing to do this, I sure will be willing to try the pvp server with the carebears just to see how it is.. I bet you my &/()#(&#)( that it's not as bad as neither side thinks.
So why not test it out, then decide?
The higher level you get, the further from home you have to go and the more you have to travel around. I don't expect to see much trouble at all pre level 30~35ish. So I'd have to play that char at least up to 35~40ish just to get a vague idea before retail starts ... and I honestly don't feel like powerlevelling a new character up there. Sorry.

[JojoTheSlayer]

After talking to the PvE crew on TS, the PvP crew on TS about the pros and the cons about each server and also played the game on PvP to Level 15 I must say that the ganking stuff is a bit overrateted.

I mett my first ork at level 14... I think he was around level 24 or something, but he didnt take me. After that a few more came and I gott killed. Respwaned, told a few peps there where orks in the area... div orks 5x level 30ish. Every able body from level 12-17 went over and we more or less ganked the "elite". Yes, I gott killed a few times, but It wasnt any diffrent from beeing killed in PS. Respwan, little running and back in action. Not a realy big deal if you ask me.

I found it fun and more real when I had to look out for the enemy while doing quests, but I cant say I saw that many enemies doh hehe.

PvP WoW is like Planetside whit Missions where you do a mission, but also attack the enemy when you meet them. Combat is a bit diffrent, but not to complex. Levels do count yes, but its sort of like meeting a tank as inf. If youre alone you will get killed, if you have more troops to back you up you can just as well kill the tank.

If youre not used to rpgs I would think you would like the PvP server more since its more action orianted. While the PvE server is more like solo rpgs where you more or less becomes this uber guy that only dies when you youreself chooses...aka usaly not by PvP enemy.

To my knowlage there are two types of sterio rgp peps, the action orianted and the relaxing/story orianted. The action guyes like Diablo 2 and so on while the relaxing story type would prefer Baldurs gate or NeverWinterNights.
WoW PvE is relaxing, while PvP is action orianted, but both having the same story element... exepte the war is a bit shalow in PvE, you cant attack the enemy on sight. If you like to be able, not saying at every moment, to play rpgs whit one hand on the mouse only while watching tv go PvE. There you wont gett any surprises which makes you turn off "relax mode". If youre getting into WoW whit more or less a PS action/kill the enemy mentalety go PvP.

Will it take you longer to become level 60 on the PvP server? OfC, youre fighting real people not botts. I mean do you kill as many or as easy most peps in PS as you do in a solo FPS? No, it is a bit harder to play PvP, you will get killed when you dont like it, you will also most likely kill peps back when they dont like it, but once you reach level 60 you wont become "god" like on PvE. Instead you will become more survivable and still have stuff to do after level 60. Keeping the game, I think, intresting longer. Beeing "god", walking around haveing no real challange is what I can do in PS sanctuary... and thats no fun :)

[TheIcon]

Good post JoJo with valid points for both sides. I dont seem to have that much of a problem with people gaging me either, it has happede 4 times and that was a corpse camper in the wetlands 3 times, and then it was 50 hordies that steamrolled me lastnight in ashenvale and thier way to raid the elf town.

I think diffrent pvp servers will also have diffrent mentalties depending on which "guilds" play there. Some guys I know in an all danish guild on pvp 6 tends to focus on powerleveling and powercrafting. Tuesday night they had a group of 5 people who all started playing sunday, their levels where 25-30 and thier main goal for the everning where to take a trip to the other side killing off as many quest npcs, npcs and players as they could find. These guys mainly seems to go for pvp because they can "take over" towns. If it was up to them they could take a town and make it thier own, their are as much in pvp for the whole control issue.

So there are diffrent types of PvP players also :)

When you hit level 60 you wont become this "god" :D well you might be a god in the lowbie zones, but there are still tons of stuff/quests/instances/raid instances there will be avaliable after level 60. Blizzard likes to say that the game begins at level 60, not up to level 60.

[Veth]

yesterday there was a lvl 58 orc warrior in darkshire. he ganked some players. first we ran into town and he followed. soon he was surrounded by npc guards and ~10 other lvl 2x-3x players. daymare, forak, vanch and me kicked his arse then 2 times. that was such a good feeling to kick in his ganker nuts. priceless.

[Derekian]

I know i don't play the game.

I just read the post from Daymare and came to read this post....why all this h8 guys? shy said that u can create 2 guilds what's the prob?

Come on stop the fight and start making love...SKULLY bring the lube plz and make sure it has some more sand this time!!!!

[Fusion]

I think this is enough to establish that we will have RL represented in both PvE and PvP, I will set up separate PvP and PvE forums and usergroups in the next couple of days.

The debate ends here and I do not want to see x is better than y threads in the future.