DKP, initial experience

[Ramiraz]

As most of you might have read, we (Misjulle and I) where at the beginning very much against the DKP system. With the decision of the officers to implement it without a trial, we decided that we should give it a chance.

having been on 4 of this weeks 5 DKP runs this week, we have made some observations and thoughts about the system. First of all, if this system keeps to the current method of 1 preplanned raid per day / 5 day per week, it is a acceptable and in some cases fair set of lootrules, and a decent replacement for the rolling system (for the preplanned raids only).

It its however not all sunshine, there are downsides aswell. The biggest (which can be an advantage aswell, depending on the situation) is that we have to think alot more if we realy want or need the item that has dropped. This leads to many items that could have been put to good use to end up as disenchant because people didnt feel like bidding their points on it.

With this system being as new as it is, there are offcourse kinks and bugs in it still, a rather large one encountered today was the temporary decision that the Cromatic scales and Carapace was going to be bid on with the normal bid prices if one wants them (3p and 20p respectively). This just feels wrong, to have to use the hard earned points, and alot of them, to buy the items needed to complete a quest. This rule was made as a placeholder because it still has not been decided how to handle these quest drops.

another "gripe" We have noticed is the difference in how the current rules are interpreted by the various DKP officers. This is not ment as a negative comment against the officers, as they have handled it in the way that seemed the most fair to them.
as an example, on our second DKP run, led by Budmonkey, the disenchant shards where as the rules stated randomed for within the raid. The way it was done that everyone on the raid did /random 100 and the highest roller won the shard.
On our third DKP run, led by Kaldor, the shards where again randomed by within the raid. Kaldor however chose a different aproach. He divided the raid in to tens, and he would do the /random 100, then giving the shard to the corrosponding winner.
On our fourth run, led by Deffy and Isador, the method was much like Kaldors, except they decided to do /random 15 (we where 15 people on the raid).

Each of these methods where fair and well thought of, but it was confusing that each raid had a new way of doing it. Getting a comon rule would help alot here. An easy suggestion is the way is that the /random number is equal to the amount of people in the raid, and once number is decided by what place you have in the CTraid tab (group 1 spot 1 = 1, group 1 spot 2 = 2, group 2 spot 1 = 6, and so on)

Raid starting time is another issue, and elsewhere on this site Gromagrim has made a good suggestion. Closing raid group invitations 30 or 20 minuttes before actual raid start time. This would give the raid leaders enough time to get the groups sorted out so the raid can still start killing inside the instance at the appointed time (which often can be crucial in the decision on whether or not to go on the raid). So a raid set to start at 6pm would Close invites (without exeptions) at 5.30pm or 5.40pm. this does not mean that raid members should be at the instance at 6pm, They have to be there at the closing of invites so the groups can be sorted out quickly, and without delay.
This ofcourse is just our suggestion on how to solve the reoccuring problems of raids starting 30 minuttes to 1 hour later than originaly intended.

With this system tried now, we are not as adamant oponents of it, but we still believe that it belongs in MC and harder instances / encounters, not in UBRS, LBRS, Scholo, or strat.

[Dojun]

About different rules under different officers and sharding. At the strat raid we let the person that won the item decide if he/she wanted a shard or keep the item. But on ubrs another one was in charge and then we always sharded the items nomatter what, and gave it to the winner of the roll.

[Gromagrim]

Thanks for the input, As we've stated all along, the system is still a work in progress, though I'd like to remind all that you 'perfect solution' to what you perceive as a problem might not be so perfect for the rest of the guild. Anway, here are my personal reflections on Ramiraz' observations

With this system being as new as it is, there are offcourse kinks and bugs in it still, a rather large one encountered today was the temporary decision that the Cromatic scales and Carapace was going to be bid on with the normal bid prices if one wants them (3p and 20p respectively). This just feels wrong, to have to use the hard earned points, and alot of them, to buy the items needed to complete a quest. This rule was made as a placeholder because it still has not been decided how to handle these quest drops.While this is indeed a quest, the reward is (in my eyes at least) a luxury, it's very dependant on luck rather than skill to get. Of course, the DKP limits this luck, and brings it down to hard work. Now, the minimum DKPs to get the Plate BP or Mail Legs will be 50DKP (10 lots of Rare, and 1 Epic item). Now 50 may seem a lot, but Epic breastplates, from systems similar to ours (although without a cap) could bring upwards of 140 point bids. Again, lots of points, but Remmebering our top soft cap is 150, not that unimaginible. So far, we've only seen bidding on Rare (blue) drops, and have (IIRC) a maximum bid of 9 points. As people earn more points, we're going to see this lots more often, as people fight hard for the best loot. And once we're in MC/Ony, 50DKP is probably going to be an average bid for a set item. So, these points aren't all that surprising.

Having said that, an item's only worth what it's bid, and were these items going to waste, I might be inclined to think we're doing wrong, but I notice Wothar was only too happy to spend 9 of his DKP ( a Raids worth) to get 3 Scales, while in the other raid, a small bidding war ):p) led to a cost of 4DKP for one. Now, you might think this too much, but who can say that they were lucky enough to get 3 scales in one raid? ok, it cost Wothar all his points for that raid, but so what? I'm sure he'd happily have stayed in IF for 2 hours if someone offered him 3 scales :p. Like you say yourself Ramiraz, it makes people think about 'need' rather than 'want', and while, in a normal raid 3 people would have got the scales at random, to rot in their bank, in a DKP raid, one person can push to get the ingrediants to complete the quest. Great guns, I say.

another "gripe" We have noticed is the difference in how the current rules are interpreted by the various DKP officers. This is not ment as a negative comment against the officers, as they have handled it in the way that seemed the most fair to them. This is true, the rules aren't concisive, and there's a ceetain amount of interpretation involved on the part of the officers (another reason we've delayed the promotion of 'DKP officers')

But this isn't just the officers, I'm more than happy /random 10 or 15ing, but it pulls complaints that the feild is too limited for the random number generator to be fair. Apparently these RNG's tend towards the extremes in small fields, leading for calls to do /random150 and divide by 10, confusing everyone (including myself) I then did a quick feild test to prove the fairness of /random 15, (and luckily, it worked :P) and I think this is the system I'd like to use. We'll probably make sure this is synchronised between the officers :p

Raid starting time is another issue, and elsewhere on this site Gromagrim has made a good suggestion. Closing raid group invitations 30 or 20 minuttes before actual raid start time. This would give the raid leaders enough time to get the groups sorted out so the raid can still start killing inside the instance at the appointed time (which often can be crucial in the decision on whether or not to go on the raid). So a raid set to start at 6pm would Close invites (without exeptions) at 5.30pm or 5.40pm. this does not mean that raid members should be at the instance at 6pm, They have to be there at the closing of invites so the groups can be sorted out quickly, and without delay.
This ofcourse is just our suggestion on how to solve the reoccuring problems of raids starting 30 minuttes to 1 hour later than originaly intended.

If people have set time aside for this raid, we should respond by starting on time. An easy statement to make, a hard one to enforce. If we only have 6 warriors show up for a UBRS raid, we can't do it :p But the 30 minute grace period should be sufficient to sort the raid out and get it started on the hour. Of course, after 1X.30, we can't promise you that you'll have a place, but if you arrive by that time, we'll do our best to get you on a DKP raid.

With this system tried now, we are not as adamant oponents of it, but we still believe that it belongs in MC and harder instances / encounters, not in UBRS, LBRS, Scholo, or strat. Of course, you're entitled to your opinions, which I know are shared by a few others. Personally, I wish these rules were implemented when I was hunting my set, it would have made it a lot faster, the amount of Stratholme runs I did with nothing to show but a repair bill :p

[Nyana]

I then did a quick feild test to prove the fairness of /random 15, (and luckily, it worked :P)

:D

[Wothar]

I notice Wothar was only too happy to spend 9 of his DKP

Actually i was not but needed scales for the epic armor quest. I would rather take up my chances rolling instead of having to bid. This is not a joke, i bid because i needed and i was left with no other way. It actually hurted a lot to spend 9 p on a single run, on a quest item, that i would personally prefer to roll with all that needed it. There is this impression i formed during the time i am in the guild, that the guild is actually selling everything and i mean everything. I wonder what is next, bid on the blood of general Drakisath?

This leads to many items that could have been put to good use to end up as disenchant because people didnt feel like bidding their points on it.

I couldn´t agree more. Everyone is saving their points for biding items they "need", namely epic ones. However, there are several green and blue BoP items that could have been used by some class as secondary items, helping with increasing stats and abilities outside the basic build of the player involved, that could be needed say in MC (Nikodemus´s thread about healing palas was very interisting and i have to admit that i already had started creating a secoond set of items focusing on intellect/spirit/stamina/resistances, spefically used on MC and/or hard fights/instances i will need to heal more than fight/tank). It seems to me that things should be done as it follows, as it appears to be more fair:

- boe drops, all roll if someone needs (use) give
- bop drops, all pass, if we have some bids then bidding process continues as usual, if noone bids those who could use item (and i mean use not, disenchant) should be allowed to /random 100 (there could still be negotiations between interested players, regarding their specific needs and if someone actually needs more, the others should pass, in light of mutual partnership), if noone bids or say they need then disenchant and everybody roll /random 100 for a fair chance on the shard (random 100 is the fairest, since statistically, the curve appears to be a bell, meaning most frequent rolls are in the middle range of numbers - random (1-15) should not be used because the range is too limited and the numbers located in the middle of the range are statistically favored)
- set item drops (boe), all pass, bidding is allowed only to the respective class (if it does not exist other classes that can use for their OWN character could be allowed to bid), if noone is bidding then all can /random 100 for selling or saving for alts
- set item drops (bop), all pass, bidding is allowed only to the respective class (if it does not exist other classes that can use for their OWN character could be allowed to bid), if noone bids all random 100 and the winner chooses wheter he/she keeps the item or has it disenchanted by another raid member
- epic or higher item drops (boe), all pass, bidding is allowed only to the respective class (if it does not exist other classes that can use for their OWN character could be allowed to bid), if noone is bidding then all can /random 100 for selling or saving for alts
- epic or higher item drops (bop), all pass, bidding is allowed only to the respective class (if it does not exist other classes that can use for their OWN character could be allowed to bid), if noone bids all random 100 and the winner chooses wheter he/she keeps the item or has it disenchanted by another raid member
- quest item (boe) drops, all who actually need for quest roll
- quest item (bop) drops, all pass (safety), all who actually need for quest roll

I think this is the fairest loot sytem that we could have as it:
- actually rewards frequent players, since it takes into consideration their contribution to guild raids, before and above everything else
- doesnt favor any particular class/profession
- everyone is having their chance to roll on items others dont want/need
- eliminates the need for "bank" accounts, which their contents noone knows
- uniform appliance, the system can be applied on all instances, including molten core and i dont really think that there would be anyone that is not satisfied, since those that worked harder will have the first and last saying on loot (bidding...) and those that actually need something without bidding the hard earned points, will have a chance of getting it fair and square

Raid starting time is another issue, and elsewhere on this site Gromagrim has made a good suggestion. Closing raid group invitations 30 or 20 minuttes before actual raid start time. This would give the raid leaders enough time to get the groups sorted out so the raid can still start killing inside the instance at the appointed time (which often can be crucial in the decision on whether or not to go on the raid). So a raid set to start at 6pm would Close invites (without exeptions) at 5.30pm or 5.40pm. this does not mean that raid members should be at the instance at 6pm, They have to be there at the closing of invites so the groups can be sorted out quickly, and without delay.

I second that, or any other variation that eliminates or reduces the lost time of waiting for raid members. Waiting time is lost time, and lost time makes ppl bored and bored ppl get frustrated and angry and finally perform poorly or badly. Raids should have a fixed starting time, a fixed estimated ending time and clear goals and loot rules. This is the only way of making all happy and noone given excuses, valid or not, to argue and/or whine.

Concerning the point cap (150 points if i am not mistaken) it appears to me that it is set too high, especially for those of us that have a limited time, since even with the raid schedule set up a full week long, most of the working players will not be able to take part in more than 2 or 3 raids a week, leaving them at a disadvantage. If the cap was set up lower say 50 or 100 points, more ppl would ding that cap.

The main idea regarding raids and loot should be fairness to all at all times.

[TheIcon]

I think what you put down Wothar is a good idea and would be a fine balance between the normal loot by chance and the DKP. It is however a fine list of rules for everyone to remember and remember to enforce in the instance. Which could lead to a downside where you'd have to spend 40min at each raid explaining to the dude at the back what the rules are, and then another 20min later on because he forgot them :P

About the cromatic scales / carapace and Prestine Hide of the Beast those quests are designed with a hugh investment in items needed to complet them and get the items. That said a person doing the quest is a person that is willing to go to some extend to gather all the items needed + paying up front to get a purple item they plan to use. Having to spend a full 3 DKP on one scale might be a tad over the top as a start price, and 20 for carapace and hide like wise, maybe set a lower start bid on these items (1 for scalse and 10 of the other 2) seeing as they have to gather quite a few items just to get one piece of equipment in the end.

[faith]

am damn sure th dkp system was trialed... hence long thread full of support/flames/aggro etc before this started for 'real' :)

dont particularly like any points systems at all - but am open-minded and pretty happy with it so far...... i would tho prefer that u could only bid AGAINST OTHERS BIDDING for th char you bring on raid - and not alts (boe obviously :P) as i think that will become a real issue as time goes by...if no other bids- sure... then u can spend ur point pool for alt....

timing... yup, agree totally, am used to daoc raiding (ml's etc) - if u aint there half hr b4 raid start - u struggled to get a place - show up a cupla mins late and if raid was delayed it was up to those present - and available slots if any... if raid had set off - no chance, w8 for nxt one....

guild 'bank' - is a question of trust... I'd hope all officers etc could be trusted >< what's th point of being in a guild wif no trust? :( I do think a 'bank opening time' should be announced a few days in advance on forum - so as many ppl as interested cud make sure they're online... it aint that hard to check forum every day....

one thing... mite be a good idea to list sum of th popular 'goodies' in bank on 'opening time' thread....and tell ppl not to spam /w's all week ... cos that sure gonna be fun for ya... heheh

[Wothar]

It is however a fine list of rules for everyone to remember and remember to enforce in the instance. Which could lead to a downside where you'd have to spend 40min at each raid explaining to the dude at the back what the rules are, and then another 20min later on because he forgot them :P

All members should make sure they are aware of the current looting system. Once we get used to it everything will be faster and certainly a lot faster than what the currently are. Item drops, boe, we roll. Item drops, bop/set/epic, we pass and bidding /rolling system takes over. And just to clarify this, i would rather lose some reasonable time and be fair to all than speed it up and have ppl with ill thoughts. I dont think anyone would be unhappy about a loot anymore. After all, its a game and all should be happy.

That said a person doing the quest is a person that is willing to go to some extend to gather all the items needed + paying up front to get a purple item they plan to use. Having to spend a full 3 DKP on one scale might be a tad over the top as a start price, and 20 for carapace and hide like wise, maybe set a lower start bid on these items (1 for scalse and 10 of the other 2) seeing as they have to gather quite a few items just to get one piece of equipment in the end.

Quest items are what their names implies, items needed to complete a quest. They are not a regular type of loot, so they shouldnt be regarded as it. All who have the quest they should simply roll. Simply as that. Its fast, simple and fair. It cant get any better. Why pay to complete the quest? And if so, imagine raids say in strat bidding for the key or stiches or whatever else. It would be comic and extremely frustrated since you would have to participate in tons of raids just to complete a damn quest. This will definetely lead team members to actually join mixed guilds raids, because this way they would have a chance to get what their quest needs and this is very bad for the guild, it will end up as a raid guild with the sole purpose of collecting points for molten core drops. If we are not careful we will end like this.

guild 'bank' - is a question of trust... I'd hope all officers etc could be trusted >< what's th point of being in a guild wif no trust? I do think a 'bank opening time' should be announced a few days in advance on forum - so as many ppl as interested cud make sure they're online... it aint that hard to check forum every day....

That was exactly the reason i posted this point in this way (sort of "spiked"). If there was at any time the slightest suspicion of bad trust i would have left the guild (any guild). What I actually wanted to say (indirectly) was that the contents of the bank should be inserted in the database for all to know and bid even posting on a thread (now thats a good idea...). Still the loot rules i propose practically eliminate the need of a bank since all items can either be bid on, rolled on or disenchanted and given to the winners and everyone is happy.

TheIcon. <<<<<==== Regarding the loot rules i proposed, i have to say this to you: dont be afraid it will take too long for them to apply in instances. Even the ones we currently use take an awfully long time to use. Discussion, bidding and rolling on loot is inevitable. Even Blizzard utilized the simple rolling system and this takes time as well, however little. We simply need to refine it to suit our guild´s purpose of fairness. The loot rules i proposed are a means to accomplish and by all means a fair set of rules.

[Banadan]

Well, about slow bidding, then this is simply up for the people on raid and officers. When item drops, officer on the raid should say in raid chat "Please start bidding on [Item X]" and people have to start bid. Don't wait for too long time, if people are not bidding, simply say "Bid now or it's dusted in 10 seconds". And do so if no bids come in. If someone bids and there's no other bids coming in after that, simply say "Person X bid 3 points, going to him/her in 10 seconds if no other bids" and again, do so. Basically, don't let people to lazy off, but at the same time, these announcements should be in raid chat so that all see. Soon enough people will learn to bid faster, if they went AFK to get a smoke after the kill which had their item on it and it got dusted while they were smoking...

[Nathaniel]

Similar to the way blue recipes start at 1 dkp I think quest drops like the stitches, chromatic scales should start at 1dkp only as they quest items.

If they are in demand in the group the bidding will soon rise

[Wothar]

Similar to the way blue recipes start at 1 dkp I think quest drops like the stitches, chromatic scales should start at 1dkp only as they quest items.
Except there is only one major difference. Recipes are NOT quest items. So they shouldnt be treated as ones.

[Defiance]

Hey guys,

As i've said yesterday, the chromatic scales/carapace thing is still under debate, you were fully aware of this, we also said that if it changes you will be notified, so please stop this part for the love of god because some of us are getting a bit annoyed by the continued repeating of the same stuff.

As for the dusting thing, well think of this, if we didn't dust it and we'd random it for the people who WANTED it but not needed it and didn't spend points on it, then what use does the DKP system have? As everyone can do this, so in MY opinion (note: i said MINE, not ALL of the officers) this isn't going to happen.

As for the Alliance bank thing, i will clarify a bit more:
About 1 time a week the contents of this bank will be posted on this and The Scorned's forum.
Everything we've gathered during a DKP run that's BoE will be in there, and the contents of the bank will be normally "auctioned" the same way as it was in a DKP raid, normal point bids etc, but if we have to many of an item or if they are in the bank for 2 long then they will be reduced in DKP point price.
This will be done with Members of RL and TS so everyone has a chance to bid on it if they want it.

Hope that clarified a bit for you, if you have more questions just ask.

[Wothar]

About 1 time a week the contents of this bank will be posted on this and The Scorned's forum.

Thats good to hear, but what i am proposing virtually eliminates the the need of banks. My argue is that paying for every single bit of loot/quests-items/etc, will only discourage players from participating in raids, especially those that are not hardcore players.

As for the dusting thing, well think of this, if we didn't dust it and we'd random it for the people who WANTED it but not needed it and didn't spend points on it, then what use does the DKP system have? As everyone can do this, so in MY opinion (note: i said MINE, not ALL of the officers) this isn't going to happen.

My point is that bidding always takes precedence of everything else, its just that when noone bids (on BoPs), why dust a useful item when u can allow ppl who NEED (and i mean really need to use) it but not enough to spend points on it, to roll for the actual item and not the shard (sometimes the item itself vedors for more cash than the shard and there is also the case of being used by the winner). I have talked with guildmates several times and there are a lot who think i am right. So please reconsider ....

[Defiance]

Ok Wothar, so you want us to give stuff to people if they need it, if it's BoE?

Ok, then lets give everything BoE to people who haven't been on raids and give those who raid and could use the item zip for their efforts, sorry m8, not going to happen, the bank is there for equal distribution for those who raided in raids, no matter wich raid, it gives them an opportunity to get them if they had the misfortune of not dropping/not winning.

And again please, stop mentioning the quest items since i know what you mean with it, it's really getting on my nerves, it's not mean to annoy/piss you off, but it is getting extremely ..... annoying.


And as i said, if no-one bids points on it but wants them and want to do it your way, WHAT is the point of DKP?
If you dont have the points, you can go into negative, if you don't want to spend points, well i'm sorry but it's not fair to anyone that way.
i AM willing to concede in the item thats being rolled for for dusting has a choice of the winner if they wanna vendor it or dusting it, but if you need it you bid points on it, that's how we ALL have to do it, no exceptions.

We (the DKP officers) have discussed this and determined that this way is the fairest for everyone, and we did expect some people to not being happy about it, but unfortunatly it has to happen.

Again this post isn't meant to annoy/piss off anyone, but this is just about the way it's going to be (bugs still being kicked out offcourse).

[Shinigami]

If all the paladins who are raiding have their Lightforge belt, what's the problem with giving the spare belts to those in our guilds who can use them, but haven't gone on any raids yet? Would you rather sell them on the AH? Or wait for the players to raid and get DKP so they could buy it from the bank?

I'd hate it if this system starts to prevent people from getting items they could use, just so the item can sit on an officers mule... It has no use there.

[arjarjar]

Have a few questions.

Maybe a stupid question but WOW is my first RPG and i am not familiar with all the terms so what does "boe/bop/set/epic" mean?
Logic is: Set=set item, epic=epic item
But Boe and Bop?

Also agree on the point, if you want is even if you dont Reely need it but can use it, spend points.
But i dont see why disenchanting should go over Selling?
imo disenchanting and selling should be the same roll, if you win and happen to have disenchant, you can do with it what you want, if you don't you can sell it.

The bank idea is a good idea to put all items for sale (with DKP points) which nobody could use on the run. But then again why don't roll on the items nobody can use to sell as loot, this because if nothing you need drops you only have a lot of repair costs and nothing to sell :( and yes, you can maybe buy them in the bank later but then again for the set and epic items? probably not.

And last but not least, Wat happens with the loot in the bank that nobody wants? does it stay in there for ever :confused:

[Defiance]

@ Shini:

They have to raid to get their points because it wouldnt be fair to those that HAVE paid points, again not many people like it, but there has to be some sort of system, there's 250 people combined in our guilds, you can only bring 40 each time in MC, see how you are gunna share that.

@ Arjarjar:

BoE = Bind on Equip items
BoP = Bind on Pickup items


i AM willing to concede in the item thats being rolled for for dusting has a choice of the winner if they wanna vendor it or dusting it, but if you need it you bid points on it, that's how we ALL have to do it, no exceptions.


i just said this, please dont repeat.

About the bank stuff:

Items that are paid points for to sell prior to having it in the bank = BAD, why? because you dont give others a chance to bid on it.
And dont worry about repair cost, theres more then enough normal loot to cover that cost, ive only been into like 2 instances where i havent at least made square, and at 60, the repair bills are minute to what you can earn.
And yes, BoE epic set items WILL come into the bank as AFAIK the BoE set items there are pretty damn common (hear-say, no experience).

If no-one wants any item for a damn long time, we'll see what we will do with it. No real idea now, we will work that out later.

[Gaetano]

As for the dusting thing, well think of this, if we didn't dust it and we'd random it for the people who WANTED it but not needed it and didn't spend points on it, then what use does the DKP system have? As everyone can do this, so in MY opinion (note: i said MINE, not ALL of the officers) this isn't going to happen.



The point of DKP being that if you actually want something and got points, you have a much higher chance of getting it (only problem being if someone else wants it as bad and has more points).

I don't really see it's unfair to anyone not to dust the item. If you're not willing to spend any points on something, you sort of waive any right to complain if someone, who actually has use for it beoyng vendoring, gets that item for free. It doesn't screw people with points and willingness to use them in any way that I can see.

And if someone thinks it a grand scheme to pass on items they'd normally bid on if no-one else bids, trusting their luck to get it free after a random 10-40, well at least I don't really have a problem with that. Any harm out of that is mostly to themselves.

And note I'm just talking about BoP items here of course.

[Defiance]

The point of the DKP system is to get items you WANT/NEED and pay the points for it if you bid for it.
If someone has more points, well bad luck, you'll have more chance next time since you have more points now.

If you are unwilling to pay any points for the item, then you also remove your right to complain about it should go to someone who wants to use it and doesn't want to spend the points for it, everything has it's advantages and disadvantages, this is 1 of them, if they don't pay the points, they can't have it, and it does screw other people if those people paid points for the same item you are suggesting to give it for free to those that want it but won't pay.

This "grand scheme" isn't a matter of IF, it's a matter of when, because it is in the human nature and in how people are raised.

For example: There are 2 supermarkets near you, both the supermarkets are right next to each other, Supermarket A sells Coca Cola for €1, and Supermarket B sells it for €1,50.
Where do you go to get it? Answer: Supermarket A, why? Because it's cheaper.

In principle the same thing will happen ingame because it's how we are brought up and it is human nature to be "greedy".

IMO (again MY opinion) this rule stays, if you want it you pay for it, if you don't want it, to bad it either get's vendored or dusted.

[Gaetano]

and it does screw other people if those people paid points for the same item you are suggesting to give it for free to those that want it but won't pay.

This "grand scheme" isn't a matter of IF, it's a matter of when, because it is in the human nature and in how people are raised.


First of all, I'm not suggesting giving anything for anyone who doesn't want to pay. I think unbid BoP items should be randomed as we've done so far. Only thing I don't agree with is this mandatory de-enchanting; not least because shards can be worth quite a less than the item itself sold to a vendor.

If I got it right the "problem" here is that someone who could actually use them item beoynd vendoring it, gets it for free while someone else has/will pay for it in another raid. However I think this is a very rare occurence and can't really be exploited. When I said "If someone thinks it a grand scheme", I meant that someone would have to be pretty bloody stupid to do that.

For example if you want an item that has ~10% drop chance, like set helm/leggings/tunic. So you basically see that drop every 10 runs (in theory, we all know what the actuality can be...). What kind of moron THEN trusts his luck in a roll against 10-15 people instead of using 3 points to get it (especially since you can always bid 3 even if don't have points)?

[Defiance]

Gaetano:

As i've said about several posts upward, is that i am willing to concede to not mandatory disenchant it.

And what you think are morons to actually do that, are infact morons but clever and very patient morons aswell.

There's also this: "There's a sucker/moron born every minute."

It again is not a matter of IF, because it will happen, people are like that and allways has been, this unfortunatly won't change... at all

[Wothar]

I just logged in, so plz dont interpret the absense of my reply as an acceptance of your points or a failure to argue. A few comments:

Ok, then lets give everything BoE to people who haven't been on raids and give those who raid and could use the item zip for their efforts, sorry m8, not going to happen, the bank is there for equal distribution for those who raided in raids, no matter wich raid, it gives them an opportunity to get them if they had the misfortune of not dropping/not winning.

So we could give only to ppl above a certain rank or according the date of their enlistment. About the excess items in the bank i reserve my comments until the first opening of the bank.

And what you think are morons to actually do that, are infact morons but clever and very patient morons aswell.


I hope you are not implying anything for me, cause if you do then i would get pissed off, the only difference being is this gets personal and not over a normal debate.

All i know is this: so far i have 4/8 set items 3 of them i rolled in non-guild raids and the one i found in a guild raid i rolled and won (before the dkp system). We will end up raiding for points, since casual non-hardcore players have limited or little chance of getting decent items in raid guilds. So please set it right: are we a hardcore guild or not? If we are please say so, so us non-hardcore players can find alternative ways of getting our gear, if we are not then its about time we should act like one. I said it before and i am saying it now, dkp rules as they are favor the hardcore players. I never had any enchanment from any of the guilds enchanters, so why should i give loot to them. Last night we raided LBRS, and i noticed in many occassions items just given to ppl, enchanters or not. No rolling, no bidding just given. I didnt say anything at that time cause i was too tired to enter an argue with 8 ppl (raid was already late to start, over an hour, maybe more). As an example, a gem for the ubrs key quest was given to a team member (dont remember if she was "scorned" or "RL"), with the simple excuse that it was the only one missing for her quest. I have nothing against her, but for all fairness, we should have rolled, even if i lost. Why does she have more rights on it than anyone else that needs it? And just to add up, this was only one example from yesterday's raid, still not the only one.

If all the paladins who are raiding have their Lightforge belt, what's the problem with giving the spare belts to those in our guilds who can use them, but haven't gone on any raids yet? Would you rather sell them on the AH? Or wait for the players to raid and get DKP so they could buy it from the bank?

Precicely my point. The idea is ppl should earn what they need, so if someone hasnt been on any raid at all they shouldnt get the item. In the past i happened to find, boe or other non-soulbound stuff i dont use, but someone else does and i gave it to them. Same thing worked with me on the other side. However,the thing with boe is that the raid members should have the first and last saying with them, cause they are the ones they worked for it (specifically it). If someone else needs they should either give or sell for a reasonable price. The difference is they have the first and last saying on it, since they earned it.

And again please, stop mentioning the quest items since i know what you mean with it, it's really getting on my nerves, it's not mean to annoy/piss you off, but it is getting extremely ..... annoying.

Imagine how i feel about this....

i AM willing to concede in the item thats being rolled for for dusting has a choice of the winner if they wanna vendor it or dusting it

Agreed then, just make sure we /random 100 cause statistically speaking, limiting the range of specimens to a descrete point (meaning 10ppl==>> 10 numbers), is limiting the results to the middle of the range and i have seen it happen more than many times. If u insist in using random 1-10 or something like that and you think it makes no difference (actually you can verify what im saying with any statistics book, since many fields of our technology rely on statistics heavily), then by all means on the raids i am on please put me on the spots 5 to 7 of the rollers list (on a 10 ppl raid) and adjust accordingly for larger ones :cool: .

And as i said, if no-one bids points on it but wants them and want to do it your way, WHAT is the point of DKP?

Said it before and i will repeat it again. All ppl save points for epics (namely mc) and that is a fact, especially those who dont have much time to play. Those who have spend them so far, including me, did so beacause they were left no other way. There are good thoughts expressed by other guildmates, regarding the creation of a second set of items used for specific tasks (i.e mc/onyxia or anything else), which is something that i agree with. But how are going to gather this sort of gear if the guild insists on paying hardearned points for second rated equipment no1 bids, since all want to spend their points on epics? What im saying here, applies only with BoPs. It really hurts to see good (but not good enough to bid) items being dusted. If someone really wants they bid, ok with that. But if noone bids, then why on earth arent we all or those who like it given a choice to roll for the item or the shard? The difference between those who really need is that they bid, still those who dont should be given a choice of getting the item to use or sell and not just have a chance on its shard. I just dont get it.

As a conclusion, i have nothing more to add. I think what i proposed in the beginning and i revised/explained after is fair. As of this moment, i will say no more, no matter what, since it gets tiresome to argue all the time and i really dont have much time for it. I would rather play wow, or live my life instead. I think i have spoken the thoughts of many guildmates, who dont "dare" or bother saying. Those who actually want to understand will, those who dont will hide behind the curtain of the current point system. End of story. Good gaming to all.

[Fusion]

As an example, a gem for the ubrs key quest was given to a team member (dont remember if she was "scorned" or "RL"), with the simple excuse that it was the only one missing for her quest. I have nothing against her, but for all fairness, we should have rolled, even if i lost. Why does she have more rights on it than anyone else that needs it? And just to add up, this was only one example from yesterday's raid, still not the only one.The reason for doing this is simply the most efficient way to get another person equipped with the key -- the more keys we have, the better.

[Defiance]

@ Wothar:

The bank is there for a reason, and is required to be there so people can fairly bid on it, there is no "rank" it's simply that if you have points and want/need something you have to pay for it, we ALL have to, there are 0 exceptions, rule is plain and simple.

About the moron thing, it's not meant to you, if you read carefully it says that the people you call morons, are actually, most of the time, very clever and patient people.

The enchanting thing is usually done so guild enchanters can enchant other guildie's weapons, simple as that, this rule has been in here for so long, it's almost a shame if you didn't know it, raids can be done differently yes, but generally it's enchanter gets non-needed items to disenchant, and AFAIK that's how it's going to be with alliance raids, read the DKP raid rules, it's in there.

About being hardcore or not, that's for yourself to decide, would you prefer having 250 different people going into MC and raiding and everyone squabbling over who wants what and who gets what? I sure as hell know that i don't want to end up in that hell as an officer, it will only produce complaints.

Again on the belts thing, raid and earn points and get it, if it's in the bank, chances are likely that there's several in the bank therefor you can get it cheaply, you get 3 points starting bid even, that's enough to bid on it, if someone outbids you, lacking a better word, tough luck then, try again l8r.
Other people have to pay for em, why shouldn't you?
If people decide to spend points getting the stuff to give to guildies, be my guest and go for it, THAT would be true teamspirit and friendship.

Quest item things, I.E Brilliant Chromatic Scales, i have said this many times in guild, 6 times at least, we were still debating over the scales, i explained it 6 times, i explained it 3 more times on the forums here, how should i imagine how you feel? you spent 9 points because you wanted them, that's YOUR choice, i didn't force you, i told you exactly what would happen and what the possibilities were, how should i imagine it, *I* got the shit over me because of this and i apologized several times for it wich i needn't do even, i think i have it FAR worse then you have so don't even start about you feeling worse then i do about it.

Sorry if this above part seemed rude but you have NO idea how annoying this is repeating this to raid then members and again and again and again, this slightly pissed me off.

Rolling system, This game thing is based on the nearest form of true random as possible as it is on a computer system, it makes 0 difference if i do 1 - 10 or 1 - 100, people have even more chance of getting middle statistical winning if i do a /random 100, so in my raids, it will allways be 1 - 10 or 15 depending on raid size, if you want to, ill park you in the middle to show you that it makes 0 difference exactly.

Again with the BoP items that "if no-one needs, we should give them to people who want it" thing, as officers we went over this yesterday and ALL of us came to the very same conclusion, if you want it, you pay for it, if no-one bids points on it and you want it, pay 3 points for it, youll have no-one else who bids on it, and voila, you got it, and if you REALLY call Lightforge/Valor etc 2nd grade equipment, m8 sorry to say this but you are out of ur mind, have you seen the epic sets? they are NEARLY identical, with just a slight increase in stats, next patch will bring that down hard, please do some research before you post like that the blue sets (Tier 1) are 2nd grade and useless, they are bloody good.

Sorry if this pisses you off, but that's exactly how it is, for instance next patch the Lightforge/Valor will be ALOT better for damage dealing then the epic sets will be, you can go for Rank 11 to 14 in Honor system to even match the Valor set (most of them at least).

Again i apologize if this pissed people off, but this IS how it is(mostly, some are opinions), and if people are afraid to come forward on this post thing, please don't be, i allways enjoy criticism, if it's correct i work on it if it's not, then you have a discussion on your hands, and if you are afraid i'm going to do something bad (or any of the other officers) then your fears are misplaced, i wont and neither will any other officer.

And the gem thing, what Fusion said.

Criticism anyone?

[Seree]

Hi ^_^

Last night was my first Guild Hunt. I thought the DKP system was alot of fun and well organised. Was like being in a gameshow or something ! ! :p

It was a bit confusing at first, and was affraid to spend points, incase Devouty Crown would drop. :o

Eventually I got this really kewl offhand book, and it actualy shows the book with glowing gems on it ! *very happy* :D

Thanks to my great party, wich was well organised and alot of fun, congrats with all the goodies !!! ;)

Where can we see the DKP recieved for the Scholomance hunt ?
:confused:

[Toparsokker]

Where can we see the DKP recieved for the Scholomance hunt ?
:confused:
http://dkp.renegade-legion.org/