DKP - Final revision.

[Ironman]

DKP is Dragon Kill Points.

The basic point of the system is that each boss you kill on a raid accrues you points that you can spend on the loot that drops on that raid. The more points you have, the more you can bid, hopefully ensuring that the members that work hardest get the first chance at the cool loot.

The rules are as follows;
* Each raid must have an officer/DKP-officer present and have 100% alliance members to qualify for DKP.
- So generally, if randoms are invited, the raid cannot be a DKP-raid. Of course, if a specific agreement can be made with the person, then there's no stopping that.
* Points are awarded for lootzergs (8+ strat/scholo/lbrs, 12+ ubrs), not for 5-man groups.
* The points are awarded after the completion of the raid.
* All members starts with 3 points.

* Every piece of Rare (blue) or Epic (purple) loot that drops gets bid on (all players pass in group loot, or it's on master looter). Green items are rolled for as usual.
* Rare loot has a starting bid of 3 points, epic starts at 20 points.
* Rare recipies have a start bid of 1 point.
* Epic recipies have a start bid of 5 points.
* Players can bid up to their current amount of DKPs. Bidding is done on raid chat. Players can keep raising their bid as long as they have points for it. In case of a tie, the winner is decided with /random 100.
* Once an item has been bought, those DKPs are removed from the player's total.
* It is possible for a player to go into negative points to buy an uncontested item.
- Example: a mage joins a DKP raid for the first time, having zero points. An item drops that the mage can use, no one else wants it. The mage can now spend 3 points (going down to -3) to buy the item. Another item drops that the mage wants, but someone else in the raid who has points also wants it. The mage cannot bid for that item, since he is in the negative.

* Appropriate classes have dibs on set items. This means that as long as someone of the appropriate class bids on the item, other classes cannot bid on it.
- Take the example from above. A magister item drops. The only mage in the raid has -3 points, but wants the item. The priest in the raid has plenty of points and wants it. The mage still gets it, and it deducted the usual 3 points, thus down to -6 total.
* Along the same lines, crafters have dibs on recipies for their profession.

* A BoE item with no bids in raid will be sent to the Alliance Bank by the officer. Once a week, the bank will be opened for all members to bid on items using their DKPs.
* A BoP item with no bids will be disenchanted and the shard given to a random player in the raid
- Please read the note about enchanting below

About officers:
All officers in both RL and Scorned can act as DKP officers, and both guilds will promote a number of people to "DKP-officer" as well. This should mean that getting a DKP-officer for a raid should not be a problem.
This should also mean that the natural "officer-advantage" should not be present; there will be plenty of different officers capable of starting raids.

About enchanting:
We encourage that all members of our guilds make a deal with a specific enchanter in the guild - to help keep that person supplied with shards and disenchant-loot, and then get enchants in return.
That's the reasoning behind randomizing the shards among raid members. Anyone who wins a shard will be able to send it to his "personal" enchanter, and get something in return.

Sidenote - Go read this post also! (http://forums.renegade-legion.org/showthread.php?p=12942#post12942)

[Peete]

I can't find the word 'trial', does it mean it isn't one ?

[Nikodemus]

We're cleaning the slides, introducing the system and planning to keep using it from now on, unless we run into major difficulties with it. There might still be some tweaking needed here or there, but that can be caught along the way.

[Shinigami]

I can see why 5-man questing groups in Strat/Scholo/LBRS aren't included in the DKP system, but is there any particular reason that DM runs shouldn't give DKP? Tribute or DM West runs give plenty of items on par with the best from the other end-game instances, and contribute just as much to gearing up the guild for MC.

It looks good, but I predict some chaos when we have to carry this out in reality, especially from the third of the guild that never reads the forums...

[Peete]

I totaly agree with shini on this point.
For me, at least least 2 items from my futur raid gear are in DM (chest + shield) + probably one of those mana regen rings you like so much Niko. :p

[Fusion]

Dire Maul is a 5-man instance so the chances are you won't have much (if any) competition for drops, so if there is anything you need, you should be able to sort it out between yourselves as to who gets what...

[Reno]

I have my hands full with my new job during the week and dont have time to do raids only in the weekend. And when we go to MC and some nice loot drops that i need and cant roll on it because i dont have the points. Well then its a bit frustrating. I have a busy job now so i probably will never get any nice mc drop. I understand we need a system, but maybe only get points for attending of an MC raid or Onyxia?. that we can do in the weekend when most of the people have time. And that only best geared players can attend to. others need to get better stuff by going to lbrs ubrs and so on, just like the rest of us did to get our good gear.
It wouldnt be fair if a player whas going from green gear to uber gear.
Let them. Let them earn it.

I think this is fair.

That way the people who arent verry experienced yet can learn more from doing normal raids and get prepared allso for MC and Onyxia

Tell me what do you all think about this?

[Reno]

Dire Maul is a 5-man instance so the chances are you won't have much (if any) competition for drops, so if there is anything you need, you should be able to sort it out between yourselves as to who gets what...


And i dont have problems with discussing the drops.
This is allso good to set master looter to avoid problems.

[Banadan]

There is still a small problem with this system. DKP system is good as long as it is 'systematic', basically, when it is known when the points can be earnt and when not. That is, the best way to do it would be specifying certain days and times, during which the guild/alliance runs qualify as the DKP runs. Not doing this WILL lead to great disparities, that is, awarding the DKP points on random runs on random days, at random times. Not all people are from UK or CET timezone and there have been more runs then I care to remember, which are at full swing by the time I, for example, get back home (19:00 my time, 18:00 CET time). Or some later runs, which start like 23:00 to 00:00 by server time, which here is 00:00 or 01:00 respectively. Or runs to what some classes/chars don't get invite on the bases a la "Oh, that paladin is a healedin, we'll take him/her like previous 5 times instead of other paladin(s)" or "I've been on many runs with this hunter, so I take him/her instead of others" or "This warrior has most AC and HP I know, so I take him/her instead of othes". Pick your choice, more are available.

As I said some time ago, I personally have extensive experience with DKP system and the issues above were generally the first ones acknowledged with it. That's why in general the certain days and start times for guild/alliance raids are defined (and more then 1 day, so that all have a chance), during what time the points can be earnt. Runs outside of that timeframe are usual 'random' runs, can be done with anyone, using whatever loot rules, doing at whatever random times. And finally, it would be better to announce the start time of the new loot system like 1 week beforehand, that also IN GAME in MOTD, instead of posting it at some late time on the forum in some thread which was almost off the first page and what most will or did miss.

[Ironman]

Hi Banadan.

You raise some good points m8. As we (the officers) said the system isn't rocksolid and we can modify it so that it will be easier.

I'll discuss the dkp thing with the officers a lot in the future since we need to be perfect. And things like you said will ofc. be talked about. Can't promise you more atm. :)

[Budmonkey]

I also think Banadan has some valid points, in paticular the point concerning set raid days/times.
If possible setting specific days for raids and also to rotate the time at which they start to try and maximaize the number of people scoreing DKP's each week. Like Iron said the DKP system will be looked at frequently by the officers and we will try to improve it where ever possible :)

[Banadan]

I think that we can do a poll within the guild (and Scorned does within their guild) to see, which times and days is the best. And, for example, there could be max 3 days per week, during which these runs happen. 3 because it gives quite few days for people to participate, who for some reason can't do it on some other day, and also 3 because for now it's the normal max amount of raiding needed, it'll leave enough time for the 'usual' runs and stuff within the week as well.

For example - this is just an EXAMPLE - the raid days would be MON, TUE and WED, start times 20:00 server time. So people can then plan their things and even if someone can't come on MON or on TUE, they still have WED available or other day from those 3. They know the time at which it starts, so they can schedule some things accordingly. And as these are set days and times, the people have easy mind for the future as well, since they know when action happens and when things are calmer.

[Reno]

It will still screw up the chance to get loot in mc or onyxia for some people if you dont have more time then 2 hours gameplay each day during the week. thats not enough to do an instance. so basicly im screwed .

[Gunhead]

Something you lads might want to include is a Need-over-Greed factor.


Take a scenario:

DKP raid somewhere and a blue item - lets say a nice blade as an example - drops, players A and B are both qualified (concerning the class item of rules) for it and would like to have it.

Player A has a lot of points. This dropped sword is actually worse than A's current melee kit but he wants it for his alt/auctioning for profit/disenchanting.

Player B doesn't have half of A's points but enough to bid for it. This dropped sword would be a major upgrade to B's current melee kit.

With a major difference in DKP's B stands no chance bidding for it. Now for all fairness' sake player A has benefitted the guild more as the discussion has gone, but how does denying an upgrade drop from a guildie just to twink an alt for example benefit the guild further? Does a large tally of DKP's allow a holi from benefitting the guild?

Maybe my unease with this DKP system comes mainly from that: active players with loads of points can hog stuff which they in perfect honesty don't need on their main from a more casual player that do.

That's an issue which should be settled in rules before it's faced live.

[Shinigami]

Gunhead, DKP is not a substitute for common decency - if player A did that he wouldn't be a very nice guy, and IMO it would essentially be the same as if he had rolled on a blue he couldn't use under the normal system.

I think we need to continue considering peoples gear when bidding - if someone is bidding on an item because it gives him 1 more agility than the one he has, whereas the other guy is bidding because he is still using a green item, the first player should be nice enough to let the second player bid on it without contesting him.

[Gunhead]

Gunhead, DKP is not a substitute for common decency - if player A did that he wouldn't be a very nice guy, and IMO it would essentially be the same as if he had rolled on a blue he couldn't use under the normal system.

I think we need to continue considering peoples gear when bidding - if someone is bidding on an item because it gives him 1 more agility than the one he has, whereas the other guy is bidding because he is still using a green item, the first player should be nice enough to let the second player bid on it without contesting him.

Cheers Shini, that's exactly what i was pondering. Just thought to mention it as it's not listed in the rules up there.

[Banadan]

The simple thing with points is that the char can bid ONLY for itself. No mains can bid on items for their twinks. No twinks can bid on items with the points of their main char. Each char has to earn own points.

Also, it is something what the officers can 'check' as well. People are familiar with weapons and when someone is bidding on the item, which obviously is not an upgrade of any kinds, but wants to just sell it for personal gain or give to twink or disenchant and keep the stuff for himself/herself, then the officers can basically 'veto' that bid, if there's someone else to whom this is a great upgrade. But the main thing is that, of course, the people should have the decency themselves and there would be no need to 'police' such things.

[Dojun]

If someone would do that in a raid i was in i wouldnt raid anymore with that person and i dont think im alone in that oppinion. So it would benefit the person for 1 item after that it would be hard finding raids for new items

[Nikodemus]

If two people are bidding on an item, one because he needs it to equip, the other because he wants it to AH, then the guy who needs it to equip obviously should get it.

On the other hand, if an item drops that noone needs, but someone decides he wants to spend DKPs on getting it to AH, then he's free to do that.

But as Banadan said:
But the main thing is that, of course, the people should have the decency themselves and there would be no need to 'police' such things.

So I really don't hope we'll see any problems with this.

[Rebel]

I think we need to continue considering peoples gear when bidding - if someone is bidding on an item because it gives him 1 more agility than the one he has, whereas the other guy is bidding because he is still using a green item, the first player should be nice enough to let the second player bid on it without contesting him.

You've got to think also that this system covers that exact situation. Would you waste points on a minor upgrade like that? not really so thats another pro for this system, if not THE pro for this system - it makes people actually think bout a roll - and if its not worth spending points for a minor upgrade - others who need it more will have the best chance of winning it as they are willing to spend the points!

[Reno]

Its a big problem for lots of people to compete with others that do 2 to 3 instances each day. They will have an outragious number of dkp points and others wont probably ever get an item. Maybe we should do a different dkp system like other guilds use that you only get points from MC or onyxia.
And do the raids at 20:00/21:00 when everyone is at home

[Nikodemus]

Reno, check the revised rules :)

We're doing 1 run per day now.
There's diminishing returns, so once you get up over 100 points earning more becomes slow, and after 150 you barely get any anymore.

[Nyana]

Just a quick thought about DKP since i picked up playing with Nyana yesterday :)

If Mavi collects 4 DKP's and Nyana 1, do I have 5 DKP's on my account or 4 for Mavi and 1 for Nyana?

[Dojun]

Just a quick thought about DKP since i picked up playing with Nyana yesterday :)

If Mavi collects 4 DKP's and Nyana 1, do I have 5 DKP's on my account or 4 for Mavi and 1 for Nyana?


Its all individual for each char as i understand

Edit. Dont note what i saud since it was wrong

[Gromagrim]

You get a combined Nyana/Mavi score, which you can spend on either character.

As you can't log them both on at the same time, this put you in the same position as everyone else, and doesn't penalise you for levelling a second character, though you'll have to decide yourself whether to spend your points on one, the other, or share between both

[Yimahura]

I agree with dkp in instances like MC or Onyxia...
But why in the lower ones like Ubrs and strat... its the first time ppl get a chance to get a nice set and still we have to ''pay'' for it.
Ppl that have a full set.. or as good as everything that they want can spare lots of points.
Ppl maybe gonna pass on things that they actualy need to spare points to get a better item for it later... at then end they have nothing and thats not realy improving a player and his gear i think...

[Nimu]

I think Yima is right - people shouldn't pay for items in UBRS, Strat, Scholo and LBRS. Only earn them there - that way people who already have a complete set or whatever, doesn't get a "head-start" once we enter MC and actually KILL things.

Don't see any cons with this right now - perhaps i'm tired? :P

Don't know if it has been mentioned before either?

[Gromagrim]

Hey guys, thanks for the input;

One of the big reason we implemented the DKP system was to limited the 'first-timer-uber-loot syndrome' a horrific possibility when a player comes in on their first raid and proceeds to beat all those players who'e been searching for the item for a long time, and walks off with 3 or 4 items themselves.

Now, of course, if you see yourself as that first-timer, then the scenario isn't so bad :p but all of those first timers at some point will become the other guys, searching for that one item, to see a new first-timer rolling on it :p. In this system we hope it's fair. Obviously the first-timer has very little chance on that item, but, as a consolidation will be earning points for the runs that come after, emaning there's a good chance he will win it next time

I also understand that people (like myself) who've been at this a long time have most of the things they could want from these instances. Of course, we have less to spend our points on, but if you look at the points after one run, I'm one of the 20% of people that actually spent points :p so, we're not here to hoard points. Also, there's very little motivation for these players to come to these instances, so DKP will hopefully mean we get these guys in on these runs, for the betterment of the guild.

Discussing this with Iron, he mooted the point that it would have been better if DKP was implemented in the beginning. This would have hopefully gone to show that the players with the sets had to do a LOT of runs to win their items, and in fact, if we'd have had DKP back then, you'd be complaining that we had too many points saved up :p

I think you've see over time that the guys with sets are actually working to your advantage, as they're not bidding on the items you need. Also Onyxia/MC will give a lot more points per run than Scholo/Strat/BRS, so attending these raids will give many more points than 'hording' points from the lower instances