Dragon Kill Points: New trial Loot rules

[Gromagrim]

Our new DKP system can be found here (http://renegade-legion.org/dkp/viewnews.php)

Please check it out and post your thoughts here, we'll be trialing it in guild raids for the next 2 weeks

[leva]

Is there going to be published a list over how many points we get for each boss kill? Or is it 1 point for each boss?

[Tapja]

Our new DKP system can be found here (http://renegade-legion.org/dkp/viewnews.php)

Please check it out and post your thoughts here, we'll be trialing it in guild raids for the next 2 weeks

Even tho I'm not really eligible for raids yet, I must say I seriously dislike points systems. IMO they will create divisons in guild, distancing the more hardcore players from the more casual ones. At the very least, make this system exclusive to MC/Onyxia/Whatever else Bliz comes up with that requires a full blown raid to succeed.

[leva]

I disagree, there might be something in what you are saying, but remember this is about the loot.

It is not fair that for ex. a hunter who just dings 60 go on his first run in UBRS and the Beaststalker chest drops. There is 2 other hunters that have been to a lot of raids to get it. And the new lvl 60 hunter wins the roll. That is not fair IMO.

[Gromagrim]

Even tho I'm not really eligible for raids yet, I must say I seriously dislike points systems. IMO they will create divisons in guild, distancing the more hardcore players from the more casual ones.That's what this 2 week trial is for, to show people how it will run. Obviously if someone spends the 2 weeks on alt characters, then finds themselves with no points when we get to Onyxia, they'll be upset, but then, they've put no effort into getting the rest of the guild good equipment to be able to take on these bosses

[Nyana]

Serious against this idea on the following reasons:
- We always agreed to roll on BoE and ask/pass on BoP why should this be different? We had more then enough epic drops sofar and no argue ever about who won or roll on it, forcing BoP/BoE rules just made us think more about rolling on loot.
- People who dont play as often as the hardcore few are by default expelled from Onyxia fights/loot?
- We all work our asses off on killing that stupid dragon, be it by healing or melee or range, we all put effort in fighting the beast, no matter how often you fight it
- Are we really that pathetic that we put epic items above friendship?

[Dojun]

Hm. If you are turned down of the raid leader bcz he/she dont want more from that class its not fair to be punished for, the person might have been just as eager as someone else to go but werent allowed. This can affect the most crowded classes worst i.e hunters/palas we will have around 10 palas that will compete about a spot in onyxia/mc raids. The ones who are not allowed in that run will have a dissadvantage agains the ones who were allowed.

[Dojun]

Serious against this idea on the following reasons:
- People who dont play as often as the hardcore few are by default expelled from Onyxia fights/loot?
- Are we really that pathetic that we put epic items above friendship?


Imo its most fair that the most active members of guild get to raid onyxia/mc first. They have putted most effort in the game and should be rewarded. As someone said before it wouldnt be fair if someone that have done 4 ubrs runs and some strat/scholo get straight from some ordinary lvl ~50 armor to epic set amor vs someone that have participated in a load of runs to ubrs strat/scholo.

[Nyana]

So you're actually saying that people who have a TFT/CRT-tanning on their skin are above people with natural tanning :) I don't get it why people who play more and longer should by default get the best loot, every 60 people in our Onyxia raid fight the beast and put effort in it, if a healer doesnt put effort in healing the raid is doomed, same goes for a warrior not tanking properly. So even if one doesnt do UBRS and Scholo every goddamn night he has the same right of looting as everyone else imo. This game has more to offer than doing Scholo/UBRS/BRD/DM every day.

Edit: if this is about people who do high end instances every night have more experience then other people, than that is one huge concrete brick wall in front of your face (read: not dostov's face, but anyone thinking the above thought)

[Dojun]

The one who tanks will be Groma or Melian i think and main healers will be Niko Tarlin. It is becauce they have the best gear for it. Ppl that play much should be rewarded i think, it dont seem fair to me to jump from some ~50 armor straight to 60 epic set, over someone that have putted a lot of time to get a armor.

[Nyana]

The items dropped are not a once in a lifetimes drop, and really I cant be arsed with someone winning an item I rolled for, I only have 3 of 8 shadowcraft items and i've been doing high lvl instances ever since I hit lvl 60 about a good 2 months ago (not even sure when I had hit lvl 60 :)), I still sleep good at night and I wont smash my mouse into the floor... just roll on it if you need and pass if its greed, what's wrong with it? Yes hunters can use a lot of weapons, so be it... it drops another time again..

[Nikodemus]

I both like and dislike this system.

Fact: the best places to get gear before moving into MC / going for Onyxia:
- Stratholme
- Scholomance
- Blackrock Spire
- Dire Maul

And it should be pretty obvious that the better geared our raid is, the higher our chance of succeeding.
[And before someone comes with the good ol "skill and tactics are more important then gear" ... explain to me how having good gear prevents us from using tactics? thanks. ]
Aaanyways, back on track.

On one hand, if a person has been part of a raid, then said person has done his share of the work and earned the right to roll, right?

On the other hand, someone who has raided the same instance 12 times to get a certain piece of gear (with no luck) has been helping other people get their gear by joining up and doing it that many times - and he has put that much more effort into it - so shouldn't he be getting it when it drops, over someone who's on his first run to the instance?

I'm not sure if I like it or not, but might as well see it "in action", so to speak.

[Dojun]

I will make what i think more clearer. Its not what armor you have before the run that should make you allowed for the item. Its how many times you have tried to uppgrade your items. Lets take Gstar for example he have done 25+ ubrs runs now and never got his armor, so imo he should get the item over a hunter that had done 5 runs to ubrs (not only ubrs runs matter). I would get dissapointed if someone that got LF bp and rest of set in just a few runs to get the epic pala set directly in first onyxia run (btw dont think we have a pala that lucky with all set). We shouldnt just make 1 person per class availible for the item just bcz he/she has done most runs, only if he/she have contributed a hell lot more then anyone else. If we have lets say 7 palas in raid and 4 of them have contributed much they should all be allowed to roll for it, and the 3 other palas just became lvl 60 and do one of their first runs for their sets should have to pass and try to do some more work for it.

[Dojun]

The items dropped are not a once in a lifetimes drop, and really I cant be arsed with someone winning an item I rolled for, I only have 3 of 8 shadowcraft items and i've been doing high lvl instances ever since I hit lvl 60 about a good 2 months ago (not even sure when I had hit lvl 60 :))

UBRS and such places are easy to raid Onxia is not. As far as i know it has a "cooldown" for some days to prevent 5 onyxia runs per day. And with all the different loot she can drop you might have to wait a real long time to get a chance to roll for it again. If you really want you could easily do 5 ubrs runs in 1 day or around 10 strat baron (dunno about scholo). DM is also easy to go.

[Nyana]

I tried to be a millionaire about as much times as I wanted my bankaccount to be and I still havent got 6 decimals on by bank account. That's just though luck and up for me to live with it... anyway, thats my point, if your set item drops, you roll for it, you're other class-mate rolls for it and he wins.. cool.. live goes on, the thing will drop sooner or later again. Anyway, this can turn out to be a over and forth between dostov and me, so I let dostov reply and rest my case here, I think I made my point clear :)

[Gromagrim]

40 people work hard to kill Onyxia for 3 drops. The 3 people that win those drops spend lots of points, the 37 that don't make lots of points.

Points are given for BRS/Scholo/Strat because the gear you get from these raids highly improves your effectiveness against raid bosses, and the points give incentive for people to improve themselves, and for those people who've capped their equipment to go back and help anyway.

No class caps need to be implemented due to loot anymore, as someone winning a set item will spend their points, meaning the next set item to drop will most likely go to another one of that class, as they kept their points.

This system works more on trust than the non-system we've had before, as all must pass on blue/purple drops, then start bidding

I don't really like the offensive tone you always seem to revert to when this has been suggested Nyana, that anyone who plays the game lots must be socially less than casual players, and find it especially ironic from a guy who's about to cap his second character.

Yes, it takes prior effort to get the epic drops in Onyxia, and yes, it stops people from turning up on the day and walking off with all 3 pieces over the poeple who've worked hard to get the best equipment they can, but no, I'm not sorry for that

The reason we're having a 2-week trial is to dispel the already mooted reactionary myths and give everyone a feel of what their hard work will get them. We're working pretty damn hard to move this guild towards Onyxia/Molten Core, and finding our way blocked by people taking the easy way out and playing on their alts, while the officers (especially Niko) spent their entire weekend pushing people through BRD, with the help of only one or two of our other level 60s, everyone esle was happily keeping the staus quo by playing their alts. If you work with us, we will become the best guild we can, work agaisnt us, and we'll stumble and fall

EDIT: Spelling and clarification

[Dojun]

Anyway, this can turn out to be a over and forth between dostov and me, so I let dostov reply and rest my case here, I think I made my point clear :)


Damn this was fun:P Got my mind of my work about greek religion i have to do

[Nathaniel]

Another point if to get DKPs an officer will have to present then we will either need :

a) more officers or

b) the officers dont group together and spead them selves out in diff groups to sanction DKP point finds or

c) you introduce another rank say captain which are trusted by the officers to sanction DKP points


my personal view is that if it applies it should only apply to UBRS, onyxia and other 15 - 40 people raid groups.

I am opposed to guild banks for items not 'bid upon' as banks often get misused purposely or not which happened in my guild in DAOC. These should be randomed in the group IMO :)

[Gromagrim]

We're certainly thinking of making a new rank for DKP admins, but whether it's needed or not will ebcome apparent during these 2 weeks. The guild bank is run by the officers, and if we're not trustworthy, there's more problems than a few missing items, don't you think?

[Nyana]

Yes I have almost a 2nd lvl 60 char and no social life, true, i wish it was different but at the moment it isn't. Fair enough. I made a mistake by chosing a rogue at the start of the game, while I'm having more fun with a druid. So i'm catching my druid up to replace my rogue and make the rogue my secondairy, and also because RL is lacking healers. Therefor I give up my BRD/Strat/Scholo runs to return RL the favor of bringing a lvl 60 healer to Onyxia, so that's not counted towerds DKP's? May I also mention that the class-specific armor isnt the best armor prior to Onyxia? And a lot of superior items drop from outside instances as well. My point here: WoW is ALOT more than doing instances over and over again that in your sleep you make battleplans for BRD to do it with 4 man instead of 5, am I not contributing enough to give everyone free enchants, to give away all the items I have for free to guildmates, to have less then 100g on all chars because my items go straight to enchanters/guildmates? I think you should reconsider what contribution is...

[Dojun]

I am opposed to guild banks for items not 'bid upon' as banks often get misused purposely or not which happened in my guild in DAOC. These should be randomed in the group IMO :)


I think so to about the bank. Random between the ppl that need the items dont force them to spend DKP points on it.

[Gromagrim]

I too send ~80% of my items to guild or enchanters, and do all my balcksmithing free to those with materials, or charge half the price I'd get for those materials at AH if people wish to buy from me. None of this though drastically affects our chances with Onyxia, so I'm not lumping a load of extra points on myself

Most other guilds award DKPs for Major mana pots/flasks of titans/repairbots etc., and once we hit the good lady, we have plans to follow suit, but please remember in all things, this isn't about individuals, but about the guild as a whole, and our continued progression. In an guild with 150+ accounts, we can't quantify the amount af points people should get for offering 1x[Earthroot] in guild chat

[Gromagrim]

About the bank again: The idea is that, although the unwanted item may be useless for the raid, the chances are that someone in the guild will want, so it comes out of the bank for people to bid their dkps on, I'm thinking especially set items here. If you really need the money, bid your dkps for sale, but you'll find once you've bought your epic mount, there's little to spend cash on, and those dkps are worth a lot more

[TheIcon]

Personal view on point systems for loot: I dislike them, due to the simple fact that it requiers off you to invest alot of time doing Raids in order to buy items.

I believe that each raid should be seen as a seperate action, you may and may not win an item on the raid. Each man on the given raid earns his due by helping to propel the raid forward and thus gives you a right to roll.

You completly remove the chance for a new person to even get something on a raid if everyone going has a full bank of points to spend.

We used a system in DAoC for large raids where the points where given bassed on how many full raids you attende. If you where there from start to end you could roll on the items and if you did not win something you got a +10 on the next raid you attende. The +10 where added to you random roll for the item you wanted, giving you a slight edge compared to others without completly removing other people who put in work and efford in the raid from a chance on the item. Each raid without a win added another +10 on top, once you won something your mod was reset to 0.
I believe in a point system that rewards activeplayers, but that dose not remove less activeplayers (talking the time you due to reallife have at your disposale for raids in wow) from a chance on winning loot.

Another thing about the bank for BoE's, we also used this for our raids in DAoC ... it always ended up overfilled with crap that none really wanted anyway. And here I could see that people might not want to bid on them because they want to save those hard earned points for when Onyxia droppes, and thus the bank overflow with items.

But as a level 40 at the current time I doubt that I'll have a chance to expirance the trail of this system, I hope everyone that attaneds raids duing this time will go to the forums and voice what they have on their heart to say about the system. This might be a propblem seeing as less then 20% of the members uses the forum activly.

[Ramiraz]

The reason we're having a 2-week trial is to dispel the already mooted reactionary myths and give everyone a feel of what their hard work will get them. We're working pretty damn hard to move this guild towards Onyxia/Molten Core, and finding our way blocked by people taking the easy way out and playing on their alts, while the officers (especially Niko) spent their entire weekend pushing people through BRD, with the help of only one or two of our other level 60s, everyone esle was happily keeping the staus quo by playing their alts. If you work with us, we will become the best guild we can, work agaisnt us, and we'll stumble and fall

EDIT: Spelling and clarification

first, lets agree on something, Real life is more important than WoW.

Now, with that in mind, the quoted bit dont realy sit well with me, since even though we have gotten asked quite some times to come help, the timing has always been realy bad. We have children, and hence have times where we cannot help, due to the fact that within a few hours after we where asked, we would have to leave, and log of. Now, how much help would it we be then.

It also is one of the very big reasons, I am against the DKP system, since the limitations to our playtime due to our kids (if you only knew how many raids a day I turn down, because if we went, we would have to leave halfways because it would be too late, and we have to get up early. Or because we would have to leave in the middle of the raid to go pick up our kids from daycare) will leave us missing alot of raids where we should earn these much needed DKP points.

So, if you have a life outside this game you need to be punished with less chance for loot (which you have as much need for as someone who playes fulltime ) ?

An example is a raid a little while back which a guildie asked us (no, I wont name names) to come to. It was supposed to start at 9pm, which is a perfect time for us. We agreed, and went to meet up with the other raiders in BRM. By the time we had waited for over 1 hour 15 minutes, where we told in /RAID that the rest of the raid "might" come in about 30 minuttes. that means that it the raid would start at the earliest around 11pm (travel time counted in). On this specific date it was way way to late for us to start a raid (seeing as we had to get up early and get 3 kids ready for daycare). We told the raid in /raid that it would sadly become too late for us, so we had to leave. When we reached ironforge (used HS) I get a very angry tell from said guildie (raid leader), about how the H*** I would even dare to leave his raid when he almost had a full raid!

Now imagine what would have happened in this situation, had said raid been able to earn him DKP?

But if this system goes live, we would feel almost forced to join every single raid out there, but if we suddently find ourselves facing Draki, Baron, etc and its 2 minuttes to 3pm, you can be damn sure we are gonna HS out and log of, because we need to go pick up our kids (whom at all times are more importent to us than any amount of DKP, any game, and any friends).

the side effect of this is ofcourse that when we reach Onyxia, and we suddently find ourselves without any DKP ( = 0% chance for any loot) you can more or less be sure, you will find yourselves 1 priest and 1 warrior short.

On a side note, take a minutte at your next raid to make a note of who is on it, then do it again at your next raid....what you will find is that it is almost always the same, the same group if you wanna call it that. what about the outsiders?, the ones who dont get invited to raids all that often ? what will their chances for loot be? and how high will their incentive be to go help on Onyxia or MC or such...with 0% chance for loot?

[Ramiraz]

another thing I came to think of :

A BoP item with no bids will be disenchanted and the shard given to a random player in the raid

This rule means that us enchanters will never earn disenchant items on raids anymore, these disenchant items are what "funds" the free enchants I have been givíng out to the guild....

that wont happen anymore, if this system goes live, guildies will have to pay full price, like everyone else for enchantments

Each raid must have an offcier present and have 100% RL members to qualify for DKP, otherwise, any mutually agreeable loot rules can be used

This to me says that this system is not made for the regular members, its made as a way for the officers to get their items at the expense of the regular members.

[Nyana]

One thing that annoys me is that the people we co-operated a lot with to get to our precious level 60 are left out of raids to high end bosses (Trouble, Deffy, Maurgrim, Naeith, and many others from Scorned), i asked in guild chat but no one seemed to answered it.. so are all our raids guild only from now on?

[Reno]

The one who tanks will be Groma or Melian i think and main healers will be Niko Tarlin. It is becauce they have the best gear for it. Ppl that play much should be rewarded i think, it dont seem fair to me to jump from some ~50 armor straight to 60 epic set, over someone that have putted a lot of time to get a armor.


I have Blue gear only allso, there are alot of others who done alot of raids only not with them. but i dont like the point system because some cant do instances every day. and its said there are too many of some classes, So there will be people who miss out because of that fact. And some will only choose people with who they played with before alot. (Same old problem) And i'm lvling my alt yes. People who helped alot of guildies with quests or getting in raids can now start all over. I allso pvp so i dont think
this is going to work well. And if the valor shoulders or helm drops i sure as hell gonna roll on that been trying to get those items for ages.:)

[Gromagrim]

I'm pleased everyone's voicing their opinons, but, as always, I feel experiencing the system will give you better chance to understand it.

Most of the problems voiced seem to revolve around people not going on many instance runs. This is a seperate problem, and not one that has much to do with the system. It's easy to invent examples to cast the system in both good and bad lights. Let's look at the usual example - Mr. Reallife

Mr. Reallife doesn't have much time to play WoW, he has a family, kids, and squash club every Thursday. Despite this he's managed to get to level 60. Now he's at level 60, and the game goes from a solo game to a team game, he's joined a guild, and the guild raid quite often, but he can't make all the raids. What scenario do you think is best;

A) Mr. Reallife lose on his set item to Mr. Gamer, who's been on raids to this place, once a night for the past 20 nights, and, because the set item never dropped, has got loads of points. Mr. Gamer gets to spend those points, but Mr. Reallife, who's done as much work (on this one run) doesn't get the item, but did push the cost of the item up, and cost Mr. Gamer lots of DKPs

B)Mr. Reallife rolls a 99 and wins the set item. Mr. Gamer has 20 more runs to look forward to to get another chance on the item, assuming no more high-rolling Mr. Reallifes are there

Obviously, an objective view is difficult here, as we all lean slightly more to either Mr. Reallife or Mr. Gamer ourselves.

I think rather than linking the problems with the system, lets look at possible solutions

1) More raids
Easy one to suggest, hard to carry out, but a general attempt to run more of these raids to accomodate everyone

2) Set raid times
We work out a weekly plan, possibly giving out DKPs to those who show up on time? We split the raids to early, peak and late and have set instances at set times;

Monday
17.00 Scholomance;19.00 UBRS;21.00 Stratholme
Tuesday
17.00 LBRS; 19.00 Scholomance; 21.00 UBRS
Wednesday
17.00 Stratholme; 19.00 LBRS; 21.00 Scholomance
etc.

[Dojun]

You might have all blue items but you need the right blue items, i do think that grom is our equiped warrior and will tank onyxia (nothing bad about other warriors)

I just came back from the first ubrs raid with the new system and well the only thing anyone bidded for was the valor armor. Understandable the first runs tho, but it maid me think that this might not be the best for places like ubrs that will be raided often (nearly every day). But i do belive that this system would be the most fair for the big raid instances (onyxia,mc so far) since the loot there is so damn good. And it have a "cooldown" so you cant farm items wiht a run or 2 every day.

[Dojun]

And one more thing. We need more ppl that makes a raid "official" for the DKP. If we are gonna have pure guild raids that aint counting we can aswell forget the whole thing. At ubrs we had 2 officers in raid leaving 1 other online. If he for some reason would have done a random group in DM or anything another raid would have been impossible (if you want DKP).

[Gromagrim]

Enchanters: I'd thought long and hard about this one, the possible solutions were;

1) Set Guild enchanters
these get the shards, but also get lots of grief dishing out free enchants

2) Pay for shards
1DKP for shard, Didn't feel this was fair though, as enchanters had to choose between equipment or tradeskill

3) Random shards
Felt this was fairest. I know I personally hand all my shards out to enchanters anyway, but this way meant that everyone could choose what they wanted to do

4) Give to Enchanters
all shards go to enchanters for free at the expense of the other members of the raid. I didn't feel this was fair, as it would be easy to become an enchanter just to dust stuff and sell on AH

[Gromagrim]

And one more thing. We need more ppl that makes a raid "official" for the DKP. If we are gonna have pure guild raids that aint counting we can aswell forget the whole thing. At ubrs we had 2 officers in raid leaving 1 other online. If he for some reason would have done a random group in DM or anything another raid would have been impossible (if you want DKP).
But he did want a raid :D

But yeah, we're looking at giving some people access to the DKP site in addition to the officers

[Dojun]

Hm thinking of new things all the time here. And we must make the DKP "fair". What i was thinking of most is the officers that make the raid "official" they will always get invites everybody will always want to join them and they cant make a "unoffical" guild raid since they are officers.




AND for onyxia we will have to random for the spots in the raid to make it fair. To let everyone have the same chance to get there, loot i still think should be DKP but the ones that are allowed should be random so no person organizes all raids and therefor get DKP points everytime. It will make it harder to kill her but be more fair to everyone. If we go best geared they will have a big advantage over the others, we will then prolly get a raidgroup 2 for onyxia/mc and a raidgroup 2 for ubrs/strat/scholo that have to find random healers

[Gromagrim]

Onyxia's a whol new level, but when we get to her, we'll be going in with the strongest 40 people, as decided by the officers.

DKP is up for discussion, Our decisions about Onyxia aren't.


On the officer thing: There are 4 active officers, and around 30 active players. that's a 33% chance of any player getting into a 10-man run. 33.3%x4 = 133.33% chance of one of those being an officer. It's hedgerow maths, but was merely included to show how having 1 in 10 (or 15) of your players as an offcier isn't a problem

[TheIcon]

2) Set raid times
We work out a weekly plan, possibly giving out DKPs to those who show up on time? We split the raids to early, peak and late and have set instances at set times;


Doing something like that as a pre planned raid, would give peopel with less raid time at hand a chance to plan is reallife around it. But in that case I think a sign up would be needed.

Say you have a Strats / Scholo / UBRS raid night at diffrent times, but not everyone have the time to attend then all. And the most croweded raid would be the raid in prime time (to use the times you used even if they are just random hours) around 19:00. as 17:00 would crash with dinner for most people and 21:00 is often to late. So 25 people is online at 19:00 to raid scholo but only 10 gets to go (or 15) leaving the others who planned for it with out a guild raid that night. There for I think a sign up for each raid in such a raid plan would be good.
Just an idea.

Like you said we each have a person we lean towards, be it Mr. Reallife or Mr. Gamer. I would say though that my point in the matter is that everyone has a right to have fun while they are online, and being at the bottom of the foodchain every weekend when Mr. Reallife has the time to raid might not seem like fun for him for long. This could leave Mr. Reallife in a state of "why do I even bother helping these people in my weekends as I dont see any pay off"
It is true that on the single raid Mr. Reallife has an equal chance with Mr. Gamer to get a given item. However Mr. Gamer has a bigger chance altogeather to get the item as he raids alot more and there for has a higher chance to get the item.

Im aware that people who invest alot of time in the game also wants to get a cast off in the end, but the time they use should also reflect it as they have a higher chance to get stuff then a casual gamer.

I think if people used a bit of manners when they are raiding and loot drops we could come along way. If you do 2 raids in a row and both Mr. Reallife and Mr. Gamer is in both on a satureday And two pieces for thier given set drops in UBRS, one on each raid, then Mr. Reallife could say "go on take it Mr. Gamer , you earned it for doing this alot" Then when the 2nd item drops Mr. Gamer could be as kind and let Mr. Realife the the loot home.

Equal chance and manners are the way for none full raid instances (10-15).

Full raid dungeons like Molten Core and Onyxia I think is more suited for a point system, because if the same 40 people has been doing MC for 5 days stright and 2 man cant go on the 6th day when the raid gets to Ragnaros and two new guys just happen to pop by on the day he dies and gets equal chance on the loot. It a case where there has to be done alot of foot work has to be done over days to get things set in motion, I think the system will come in handy.

Well enough ranting from me.

[Dojun]

Onyxia's a whol new level, but when we get to her, we'll be going in with the strongest 40 people, as decided by the officers.

DKP is up for discussion, Our decisions about Onyxia aren't.


On the officer thing: There are 4 active officers, and around 30 active players. that's a 33% chance of any player getting into a 10-man run. 33.3%x4 = 133.33% chance of one of those being an officer. It's hedgerow maths, but was merely included to show how having 1 in 10 (or 15) of your players as an offcier isn't a problem


Good to know about the onyxia thing.

And it is no guarantee that a officer will have time/want to join for a raid. And should we forbidd more then 1 officer per raid to prevent 1 raid from getting nearly all officers?

[Gromagrim]

Officers are the community leaders here, we'll be the one's organising the raids anyway. You'l said yourself Sylvana that raids rarely work unless I organise them, and from my own experience I know that this is true of the other officers.

All these opinions are cool, but I feel this is devolving into a slight hofflenosh - everyone has their opinions, and are sitting stringently beside them as the discussion takes a circular direction.

I think, as you get to play more during the 2 weeks, you'll get a better idea of how simple the system is to use, and maybe (like Sylvana above) have some ideas for changes you'd like to see implemented, rather than writing it off straight away, because you seem to have noticed the hidden rule that states 'Officers get everything! you get nothing!' ;)

[Ramiraz]

I would still very much like an answer about if this system goes live, what are you going to to about the people who arent invited as much? is it just "tough luck, im an officer so I will get mine" or will you work more on keeping an eye on who goes to the raids and inviting the ones who dont get those invites daily?

I mean, I am at a loss for words, I cant understand how you can think that this is a fair system, and Sadly I belive that if you make it go live you will end up with a small core of gamers who play together all the time, without new faces amonst them...because why should someone new go on a raid, waste hour and hours with no chance at all, only the slight hope that sometime, out in the future he "might" have raided enough to "buy" an item that noone else wants. That is, if he raids every day without any payoff at all.

what made you decide that if anyone wants a chance for loot, they should put the game infront of real life? as they will need to do just that, to earn those points to get any loot.

[Ramiraz]

because you seem to have noticed the hidden rule that states 'Officers get everything! you get nothing!'

is that not what will happen, with the amount of DKP points they will amass, since they NEED to be present for the raid to award DKP points?

ps. yes I know that the way I say my oppinion might tick people off, well they have to live with it, since the way I see it, the things I say, needs to be said...im just the person doing it

[BNM]

If the system is exclusively used for MC, Onyxia and later (not yet implemented) raid instances, I think it would work ok. I don't think that the required skill to run UBRS, Stratholme or Scholomance in raids warrents a DKP system or similar "reward" for spending time in it. Nor does there drop any REALLY great loot in those instances that isn't either realistically farmable or a world drop. OTOH, In MC, you'll have 40 people all needing that dropped ring, trinket, whatever, reducing the already ridiculously low droprate of that particular item by another factor of 0.025

HOWEVER, since this guild has yet to progress beyond running on UBRS, in <= 15 people raids, I think the introduction of DKP is premature. Unless this test is solely used to get people used to the workings of a DKP system in the first place.

Also, I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of players being allowed to bid for items into a negative score on the bottomline. How would this even work? say player A has 1 DKP, player B 2 DKP. An insane tier 7 epic item drops, minimum cost waaaay more than they have (if that doesn't work, assume both A and B have 0 points). Does that mean both are allowed to place bets into infinity?

And why does these 2 rules not contradict each other:
* Players can bid up to their current amount of DKPs
* Players may go into negative DKPs, unless a player with sufficient DKPs is bidding against them* Players may go into negative DKPs, unless a player with sufficient DKPs is bidding against them

[Ramiraz]

Onyxia's a whol new level, but when we get to her, we'll be going in with the strongest 40 people, as decided by the officers.

from our quick head calculation, 40 people is 4 of each class, plus some wildcards.

So would you please post the list on who those 40 are, so those 40 can start to earn their points, and the rest can sit back and relax, since they wont realy need the best gear anyways?

[Neraj]

My initial impression is that this system will only divide the guild.

There are certain players who find it hard, like me, to get guild groups for high level instances like strat/ubrs/scholo/DM. So while these players struggle to get groups the other players who are frequently in these raids tally points up in order to use against them, therefore giving them an enormous advantage on contested items once the struggling player eventually does get to come.

So does it seem fair that a person who is active and is available to do those raids is still not receiving any points even though they are an active player, does this make sense?

The rolling system was provided so that we can easily resolve who gets an item by the people who need it rolling, this may seem obvious, but it troubles me to see when you’re trying to change a system that already works by adding more bureaucracy.

I mean, I can take it if I lose a roll, I don't understand why some people get so mad, if that’s the case they need some therapy. It’s the opportunity to get that chance that will do me; I don't care if I’m in a group with 5+ hunters, I’ve still got a 20% chance.

Eventually those people will get there item, there are only so many people of that class so people who don’t need it will pass, and this seems to work already.

It’s late and I can't type anymore because I'm too tired, but one thing I'd like to ask is, what is with this guild, is it based on friendship or loot, because from what I’m seeing peoples desire to loot is totally overshadowing the reason I wanted to play this game, which was to enjoy the game with friends and not have to worry about stupid things like this like in L2.

Seriously you need to sort this out, try it for the 2 week period and we’ll see how it goes, but be aware that a good portion of the guild already have a negative view on this system.

[Ramiraz]

oh yea...

In all online games, in all guilds (no matter how much we try to promote it) there are always some people who will not use the forums.

What happens when they start rolling on items, following the loot rules they have always done?

Will they end up getting kicked out for stealing loot, when all they did was follow the system that has been used for so long in the guild?

[Dojun]

My initial impression is that this system will only divide the guild.

I think that the lack of loot rules and a firsttime raider getting uber gear might split up the guild also. If for example a player spends 8+hours a day raiding/grinding and other stuff in the game lose a roll for a real uber MC loot to a first time raider i do think that he will feel that he/she have wasted a lot of time. That is one of the reasons i think MoM slpitted that the "hardcore" gamers didnt like to lose the real uber and hard to get loot to firsttimrers.



The rolling system was provided so that we can easily resolve who gets an item by the people who need it rolling, this may seem obvious, but it troubles me to see when you’re trying to change a system that already works by adding more bureaucracy.

Rolling is just luck, it doesnt reflect how much time you have putted in for this. Let me make a example, lets say 40 ppl are raiding MC and they have come all the way to Ragnaros with that 40 group. Suddenly 2-3 ppl have to go and the instance will reset soon (they dont have time to call it for today since in like 6h the instance will reset) they call for 3 more ppl in guild to come and help them to kill him. They kill him and when they roll for the loot two of the "newcomers" are lucky and get high rolls and win their items. Is that fair? Imo it isnt, the 37 ppl that have fought all the way through have worked so hard to get there just to lose the rolls to some ppl that just got there.


I mean, I can take it if I lose a roll, I don't understand why some people get so mad, if that’s the case they need some therapy. It’s the opportunity to get that chance that will do me; I don't care if I’m in a group with 5+ hunters, I’ve still got a 20% chance..


How many rolls have you lost on your set rolling high just to see one of the 4-5 other of same class roll higher?

Eventually those people will get there item, there are only so many people of that class so people who don’t need it will pass, and this seems to work already.

This eventually can and will probably be atleast 1 month if lucky, if unlucky 3 or more months since the instances hava a reset time, not like ubrs where you just have to go out switch leader and go in again. Sure if we are all gonna stick around 2 years we could probably gear up most ppl but it is a long time to plan ahead. Besides there will be new instances comming from time to time.


Seriously you need to sort this out, try it for the 2 week period and we’ll see how it goes, but be aware that a good portion of the guild already have a negative view on this system.

Yep i agree on that, its a good thing that we can try it and see how it works. I personally (as you can see from my arguing) thinks that this is a good thing if done right.

[Dojun]

oh yea...

In all online games, in all guilds (no matter how much we try to promote it) there are always some people who will not use the forums.

What happens when they start rolling on items, following the loot rules they have always done?

Will they end up getting kicked out for stealing loot, when all they did was follow the system that has been used for so long in the guild?


Easy solution. Tell everyone and make sure everyone understand it before killing mobs with BoP things

I am sorry if i do complain and critizise to much about eveything. And if someone has taken my critizice personally i am even more sry. Just want this to be as good as i think it might be.

[Gromagrim]

All these opinions are cool, but I feel this is devolving into a slight hofflenosh - everyone has their opinions, and are sitting stringently beside them as the discussion takes a circular direction.

I think, as you get to play more during the 2 weeks, you'll get a better idea of how simple the system is to use, and maybe (like Sylvana above) have some ideas for changes you'd like to see implemented, rather than writing it off straight away, because you seem to have noticed the hidden rule that states 'Officers get everything! you get nothing!' ;)

[Gromagrim]

Seriously you need to sort this out, try it for the 2 week period and we’ll see how it goes, but be aware that a good portion of the guild already have a negative view on this system. You're right, so lets just forget the whole thing, those of us who want a fair system will go join a guild that already has it implemented, to the rest of you good luck.

Or will people sensibly give it a try and help the guild progress? We can't run this on a freindly way Raj. If we did, everytime a freind of the officers got some loot, the newer members would see it as favouritism, and be less inclined to play.

Ramiraz, can you read some of my suggestions about planned instance times before flying off and threatening not to help in Onyxia, or whatever. And the instance thing is simple, we explain it to newcomers, like we always have expalined our loot rules.

[Nikodemus]

is that not what will happen, with the amount of DKP points they will amass, since they NEED to be present for the raid to award DKP points?
I'm all for promoting a bunch of people to "DKP person" or whatever to help keeping track of it. We can even have the officers -not- being able to register DKPs if you want, no problem with me there.

What I don't want, is getting these tells when I log into the game:
"Hey Niko I got 15 points yesterday can you update my stats?"
"We did a strat yesterday +8 points for me"
"Hi I raided all day I've earned 52 points"
etc.
There's gotta' be someone there keeping track of it.

About people not reading forums, we're obviously explaining loot rules to everyone before going in ... not to mention with all the talk on guild chat I think it'd be hard to miss it =)
That said, forum registration being required ought to imply that we would like people to actually read them :P

would still very much like an answer about if this system goes live, what are you going to to about the people who arent invited as much?
All the raid invites have always and will always be broadcasted on guild chat for anyone to respond to as far as I know, so don't know who you're talking about here?

About what Grom said about Onyxia, I think he forgot to put "first run" in there (otherwise we've got something to argue about on the officers forum).

When we're going in for the first time, for the very first run, having never tried it before ... well, we'll be wanting to bring the best we've got, cuz' we're gonna' need it. Big time.
If we just random amonst the people wanting to go and end up with 16 hunters, 11 rogues, 10 paladins, 1 druid and 2 priests ... well, then I'm not going, cuz' I frankly don't like wasting my time, nor am I very fond of repair costs.
Once we've got people with first hand experience it's something else, so from run #2 and on we can start rotating / randoming / whatever for the spaces so everybody can get to do it :)

[Reno]

You might have all blue items but you need the right blue items, i do think that grom is our equiped warrior and will tank onyxia (nothing bad about other warriors)

I just came back from the first ubrs raid with the new system and well the only thing anyone bidded for was the valor armor. Understandable the first runs tho, but it maid me think that this might not be the best for places like ubrs that will be raided often (nearly every day). But i do belive that this system would be the most fair for the big raid instances (onyxia,mc so far) since the loot there is so damn good. And it have a "cooldown" so you cant farm items wiht a run or 2 every day.

sure m8 i believe that grom has most of the best items. :)

[Tapja]

*After this post I will consider I have said all on the matter that I wanted to*

A) Ok, first of all, this system will give an edge to the players who already have a bunch of items obtained prior to this system setting in. And this effect will be 2fold: first, they dont need to spend points on items they already have. Second, they can whore points from UBRS/LBRS/MBRS/Strat/Scholo, cause guess what, they dont need to spend any before MC/Onyxia.

B) Second: 40 people get to go to an instance that will reset in what, 7 days? Ok, now lets say we have 80 people willing to go? Those other 40 would have been just as eager to go, but guess what, no luck buddy, no points for j00. Yea, so 3 out of those 40 will spend their points, that leaves 37 people who get +20 (or more) points over those who would have been willing to go. So in all fairness, they should get points as well, even if its just for sitting on their balls, cause they did not get left out of their own free will.

C) There will be no real motivation left for the more casual gamers to even go on guild raids anymore simply for the reason that the chances of getting anything out of their 6-8 hours of work are zero. And yet they took the time for the raid, did the same work as those more hardcore (who have pharmed a shitload of points cause of A) but will get no reward.

[Daymare]

I have seen problems like this in a few games I have played online before, and as with all systems there are bad and good sides to them.
I would just like to point out, that this system does favour those who spend a lot of time playing. Well yes, that is how it will always be, those who play a lot will get a lot of stuff.

However, with this system people that play a lot will also spend a lot of points, as far as I have understood, you start out with an amount of points ready for spending, and obviously this amount should be big enough to get yourself one item that is quite wanted. You can not excpect to win a lot if you don't play a lot, its that simple.
I agree that this might seem unfair for the casual gamers, but it would be like saying
"I should get to roll for the items in raids im no in, because im too busy to join them"
Here you got the same thing, except that you don't roll for them, you get points instead.
I feel that those who play a lot should get a chance to be rewarded for that. Some arn't MR:Goldendice, and don't win everything they roll on. Some healers I know have been to MC two times and Onyxia two times, and still hasn't won a single item. Should not she be awarded for being there when her guild Needed her?

[Ramiraz]

Ramiraz, can you read some of my suggestions about planned instance times before flying off and threatening not to help in Onyxia, or whatever. And the instance thing is simple, we explain it to newcomers, like we always have expalined our loot rules.

I did....how do you sugggest I explain to my kids that "daddy has to raid to get points, so they have to wait untill daddy is done to get dinner", because thats what the 2 first raid times would mean, if I had to go. that leaves the 9pm raid, but guess what?, only 10 or 15 of the perhaps 20 or 25 willing to go, gets to come...

That said, forum registration being required ought to imply that we would like people to actually read them :P

I can tell you from experience being guildmaster in DAoC...it isnt, not even threatening to kick people out of the guild will help this.

All the raid invites have always and will always be broadcasted on guild chat for anyone to respond to as far as I know, so don't know who you're talking about here?

You should only know how many raid invites I get by guildies in private tells, to raids that are never broadcasted in guild chat, a day. Heck, as a fellow priest I would think that you did know.

About what Grom said about Onyxia, I think he forgot to put "first run" in there (otherwise we've got something to argue about on the officers forum).

When we're going in for the first time, for the very first run, having never tried it before ... well, we'll be wanting to bring the best we've got, cuz' we're gonna' need it. Big time.
If we just random amonst the people wanting to go and end up with 16 hunters, 11 rogues, 10 paladins, 1 druid and 2 priests ... well, then I'm not going, cuz' I frankly don't like wasting my time, nor am I very fond of repair costs.
Once we've got people with first hand experience it's something else, so from run #2 and on we can start rotating / randoming / whatever for the spaces so everybody can get to do it


that is a little better. actually without DKP system, it would be near perfect...

After this post I will consider I have said all on the matter that I wanted to*

A) Ok, first of all, this system will give an edge to the players who already have a bunch of items obtained prior to this system setting in. And this effect will be 2fold: first, they dont need to spend points on items they already have. Second, they can whore points from UBRS/LBRS/MBRS/Strat/Scholo, cause guess what, they dont need to spend any before MC/Onyxia.

B) Second: 40 people get to go to an instance that will reset in what, 7 days? Ok, now lets say we have 80 people willing to go? Those other 40 would have been just as eager to go, but guess what, no luck buddy, no points for j00. Yea, so 3 out of those 40 will spend their points, that leaves 37 people who get +20 (or more) points over those who would have been willing to go. So in all fairness, they should get points as well, even if its just for sitting on their balls, cause they did not get left out of their own free will.

C) There will be no real motivation left for the more casual gamers to even go on guild raids anymore simply for the reason that the chances of getting anything out of their 6-8 hours of work are zero. And yet they took the time for the raid, did the same work as those more hardcore (who have pharmed a shitload of points cause of A) but will get no reward.



This, very well explains my standing point

[GuardianAnge1]

After this post I will consider I have said all on the matter that I wanted to*

A) Ok, first of all, this system will give an edge to the players who already have a bunch of items obtained prior to this system setting in. And this effect will be 2fold: first, they dont need to spend points on items they already have. Second, they can whore points from UBRS/LBRS/MBRS/Strat/Scholo, cause guess what, they dont need to spend any before MC/Onyxia.

B) Second: 40 people get to go to an instance that will reset in what, 7 days? Ok, now lets say we have 80 people willing to go? Those other 40 would have been just as eager to go, but guess what, no luck buddy, no points for j00. Yea, so 3 out of those 40 will spend their points, that leaves 37 people who get +20 (or more) points over those who would have been willing to go. So in all fairness, they should get points as well, even if its just for sitting on their balls, cause they did not get left out of their own free will.

C) There will be no real motivation left for the more casual gamers to even go on guild raids anymore simply for the reason that the chances of getting anything out of their 6-8 hours of work are zero. And yet they took the time for the raid, did the same work as those more hardcore (who have pharmed a shitload of points cause of A) but will get no reward.


I see where Tapja's coming from. I'm not gonna even bother arguing. I trust our officers (brown nose :D)

[leva]

I know there is two sides of this case, but my opinion is that this is great. Worked great as well so far.

This system prevents ppl who for ex. have their set pants not to go strat cos they don't need it. Now they can go and get points so they can get their chest-piece when going to Ubrs.

Which means, it is going to be alot easier to get groups to instances. I love it :D

[Trouble]

One thing that annoys me is that the people we co-operated a lot with to get to our precious level 60 are left out of raids to high end bosses (Trouble, Deffy, Maurgrim, Naeith, and many others from Scorned), i asked in guild chat but no one seemed to answered it.. so are all our raids guild only from now on?

Yeah Nyana I was thinking about this.

Now Scorned and RL have an allience, not that many of you prolly know that :) But you guys are like family to me I play regular with lots of you and I can allways log in and get an invite for some group or raid.

Can i get an officer answer to this question:

Cant i play with you guys any more ?

If not im thinking, for me it will be my sadest day in WoW, to be prevented from playing with my friends because of a guild loot system :*(

[Toparsokker]

Having tested the system (for a whole day) :) I think there is nothing wrong with the system itself. But I am unsure if it the right one for the guild. It creates pressure to constantly go and seek out raids, lvl 60 will become less helpful towards the lower lvl members. And people with time restraints will feel left out. And as said somewhere before, it will divide the guild (not sure to what extent). Also I think a lot of good loot gets turned into shard because people dont want to "waste" their points.

It will also alienate non-guild friends from playing with us, which i think is sad.

It takes some of the fun out of playing.

I'm happy with letting loot from strat/scholo/ubrs being rolled for (providing its the proper class).

But having said that, I feel there should be some kinda of system for loot allocation when it comes to Onyxia/MC. But hopefully some middle-ground can be worked out.

Everyone should remember this is a trial period. And people are expected to voice opinion, but I do sense alot of hostility in the posts here.

Just my 2 cents, anyway. :)

PS. I wrote this with several interruptions, so rampeling might not coherent.

[aresmares]

Going to onyxia (or any high end instance) wearing rugs and bearing Junks is a waste of time - both Mr Gamer and Mr Reallife dont want that.
No serious guild in WoW or anywhere can be based on random rolls system period.
I do vote for DKP and I recommend it STRONGLY
I have been in several guilds of all types before to tell that. If you want a good guild you need to follow rules not only for loot.Got to accept DKP as it is or slightly modified.It has been tested and works.And if youre just greedy or you dont trust anyone why worry? You can always organise/join a random raid/group and get what you like much much much faster than DKPing, right? Then killing with random 40 raid Onyxia will be cake too, right?

Some minor issues:
People getting a randomed shard can give it to any chanter they like to chant their items, or they can sell it for more than possibly the disenc'ed item.
The chanter gets the skillpoint and/or the happy seller the chant/money so nothing better than that.

People who have alts to lvl (as i do) may do whatever pleases them most and its more fun doing so without mind points and rolls. Yes i may turn to priest soon, or quit WoW if i dont have fun playing it, or change to pvp Horde if i like, it its my choice, i play for my fun period.

Alts & mains lvling to raiding lvls should get DKP rewarded (and very generously in fact if priests or pink gnomes :rolleyes: )

There must be scheduled raids, both Mr Gamer and Mr Reallife like that - i know believe me. Try it.

The guild bank is OK when not filled with junks. Any surplus can be AH liquidated after few weeks, or traded for expendables which guild may need very badly (like arcanite). Or given for reasonable DPK's to greedy ones to shut up at last :p

For the people who want to join a raid to get points and its full, or too many of their class want too? yes that is a very big issue which needs discussion but they can simply get in next raid by default.

A Question : how many of DKP dislikers has tried something similar before?
None ? :confused:

[Daymare]

I can't say im for or against the system, but here are some thoughts:

Add a "veteranship" point reward, one point per day or week that you have been a member of the legion, but not been in a raid.

Make it so that points count for account and not for character, this way you can play your priest to help the guild, eand still have a chance to get items for your palladin main.

freindship dosn't change just because you ahve a different loot system, people wil still be able to pass if somone else want it and they feel this person deserve it. Just because a new lootsystem is introduced, dosn't mean friendship has to end =)

Try it, I doubt it will be the end to the world, if it ends up like people predict, why not just go back to the old system?

[Nyana]

Im all in favor of a Master Looter system where we can discuss the loot distribution after the actual kill and therefor people who serious need an item can point it out in the raid chat and because of our friendship the amount of arguements would be far less then with a DKP system imo, if you all play fair and just pass on items if you dont need then we should be ok, right?

Edit: just a small thought, no matter how you set the looting rule, someone will leave the lair unhapppy/not-as-cheerfull-as-everyone, because of not winning a roll. But imo a masterlooter system will result in more happiness then a dkp system

[Banadan]

OK...

I don't know how many of the current guild members have actually, if ever, experienced the so-called DKP system (DKP meaning as such came first from EQ, Dragon Killing Points, although pretty soon the dragons were just a fodder and the name evolved into RP - Raiding Point - and whatever else. History lesson end), I have experienced it alot and frankly this is the FAIREST loot distribution system in the guild, and - believe it or not - it will actually gear people out FASTER then any other system - NBG, rolling, whatever.

Now, the basics - idea is that person who participates on guild raids (what is a "guild raid" is for officers to decide, but in general it's an activity which takes place on certain days, starts at certain time, target may be certain but also may be determined before the raid) gets raid points, what then can be spent on various loot what drops. The higher the participation, the more the points. However, there is no such thing as "point whoring" as someone said. It would be "whoring" if someone would just join the raid, then sit down at zone in or autofollow and do nothing. However, if the person is actively participating, then the points are still EARNED. Especially when that person, for example, has nothing to gain from that place (e.g. quests done, armor and weapons from that place aquired already) but still goes there over and over again to help the rest - so the points are the reward, on it's own.

Bidding - yes, indeed, the person who raids more gets more points and thus gets better and bigger chances to bid on some nifty item what drops. So what's so bad there? The person actually deserves it, as he/she has been participating on many runs already, helping not just himself/herself, but the whole guild as well. For example, someone participates on 20 UBRS runs and only thing what that person seeks is the armor drop from Drakki, everything else this person passes, as (s)he doesn't need it or already has it. Then the item finally drops and... someone who's on that run for the first time rolls higher number and walks off with it. Normal? Yes, both were on this particular run and worked to get that item. Fair? No, one has put more effort into this and, basically, should be rewarded for the effort. It wont stop that person from coming on next runs just to help others. And at the same time, the 'first time' runner will also get this same armor piece, tad later, but will get it. Also, what the point system will do is make people think whether they REALLY need that item or no. You wont waste your points on some item, which is just a minimal or medicore upgrade and what you may not even really use. At the same time, people who really need the item will spend points on it. It is by far better system then random rolling, NBG, whatever else, because with other systems people still see the way a la "OK, this item dropped, not such a big issue for me but I can use it.. And even it I wont use it, heck, can always dust it or cash in on it". Example: UBRS run and Rend drops his polearm. Everyone but 2 people pass - for one this is a huge upgrade and he'd use that weapon, to second it's also sort of an upgrade, he can use it but in reality he prefers other weapons simply because they give the needed stats, what Rend's polearm doesn't (doesn't have any stats). Both roll and the second person wins. The result - second person rarely even uses it, in most cases, the "biggest most", the weapon just collects the dust in the pack, or bank, or maybe is already turned into cash/shard/whatever. Why? Because of the roll system, which does not make people really think whether they need the item or no. With point system, the person who needed it would have bid points on it and person, who didn't, would have not wasted his points on this, he'd save them up for some other future drop, which serves him much better.

Now, the casual raider vs. hardcore raider, this seems to be the 'sore' point, but in reality, it isn't. You don't need to raid 24/7 to be competitive. ONLY DIFFERENCE here is that when some 'cool' item drops, the casual player has less points then the few 'hardcore' one and gets outbid by them. So what? There are few points to consider with this scenario:

1) It is not the last time this item drops, it will drop more and even casual participation will still earn points, enough to get that item;
2) Casual gamer will get this same item even at a bargain price! Because 'hardcore' players will also bid 'hardcore' on it and will get that item sooner, but tad later this item drops again and casual gamer will simply get it for the minimum amount of points, because others already have it. There is difference if you pay min 20 points for epic as casual gamer or 200-300 as a 'hardcore' raider when it first time drops and you bid against other 'hardcore' raiders;
3) Not to mention that if some mean tanking armor drops, then it will benefit the guild first when the 'hardcore' tank gets it, because (s)he raids every day, every raid, while casual tank logs on maybe once per week?

Note that with point no. 3, even the casual tank WILL get that armor, because the 'hardcore' raider can't wear 2 armors, and as I mentioned in point no. 2, casual tank will pay basically minimum amount of points and save more then the 'hardcore' one. Not to mention that the 'hardcore' raider may blow his/her points on various 'blue' but cool items on few runs, and then on some run, some really cool epic item drops and casual gamer wins it. Why? Because casual raider did not spent points left and right like the 'hardcore' one did and thus actually saved points for that 'big thing'.

Points - some are concerned about points, but there's no reason to worry. In general, the points are awarded per killed boss, and we all know that there are areas which are tougher then others but may have less bosses then some area, which is easier and can be done faster but has more bosses. Take such a raid and with a single raid you already earn some points. So do others, yes, but think this way - next run you cannot perhaps participate in, however others on that next run, while gaining more points, will also spend them on the items which drop there. And if few of them want it, many points will be spent and on another run, when you can join again, you actually start off with bigger point pool then the others. Not only will you be able to bid more on that run, but also can get some other drop you missed previously for the minimum bid amount, because others already got it on previous run and also spent more points.

The fact is, as long as you participate on those point runs, you will earn points and you WILL get all the items you need or want, maybe not on current or next run due to having less points, but will get on the run after the next one, and for less points to boot. And people WILL think whether they actually need the item or no before spending the points on it, which means that some item what you really need, but other does not really need, will be yours. I have personally played a lot with the DKP or raid point system and it is actually a very effective system.

[Nathaniel]

My experience last night with the DKP system was frustrating.

I logged in 10 mins too late for the UBRS trip - not a problem lets form another DKP group....

I can also understand theres about 10 pallys that want 2-3 raid slots in UBRS - again not a problem as its no ones fault its a popular class and my turn will come around?

but what annoyed me was that it was physically impossible to get another DKP raid to strat as there was only one guild mage online and he was in UBRS on the other raid. So we had to get one random mage. One random + 9 guildies = no DKP points even though he had agreed he only wanted one piece of his set armor (only mage there =no opposition). We couldnt also get a officer to come cos there wasnt one who could without there being 3 hunters.
There is a well known shortage of mages and priests which skew the effectiveness of DKP system. I try to proactively invite other mages and priests I know to join RL but its a big jump to get people to leave their current guild. How do we counter the fact that generally their can only be one DKP group at a time?

After the UBRS trip finished i thought there would be late trip to scholo for all, but as far as I could see those who went to UBRS went straight to scholo. Again no chance for DKP points. :(

[Fusion]

I logged in 10 mins too late for the UBRS trip - not a problem lets form another DKP group.... Not long after the UBRS raid started, I came on and we had the numbers (and right classes) online for another raid. I spent 45 mins trying to form another DKP raid before I gave up in frustration and went to play my alt for a while.

@ Banadan: Excellent post m8!

[Fusion]

Cant i play with you guys any more ?

If not im thinking, for me it will be my sadest day in WoW, to be prevented from playing with my friends because of a guild loot system :*( Short answer: yes.

Long answer: We don't have to have a DKP raid, and if you're going to continue raiding regularly with us, why not join us on the DKP system? It seems like a good starting point to form a perminent alliance between our guilds. :)

Don't forget we are only trying this out for 2 weeks and we may decide to only use this for MC / Onyixa raids... :)

[Nathaniel]

[QUOTE=Fusion Not long after the UBRS raid started, I came on and we had the numbers (and right classes) online for another raid. I spent 45 mins trying to form another DKP raid before I gave up in frustration and went to play my alt for a while.QUOTE]

well I disagree we didnt have the right classes for scholo or strat (no aoe from either mage or warlock) as we tried for like half an hour to look at the alternatives and eventually had to get a random mage.

[Banadan]

And as was pointed out by Kaldor - this DKP system works within the guild, which means that if we do a run with people outside of the guild, obviously we wouldn't use it because that would exclude the outside of guild people from loot.

At the same time, like with The Scorned - we know them well, raid together, help eachother, so it may very well be feasible to add them to the point system as well, on both sides if both sides use such system. That's something for the officers to decide and work/negotiate out, but in general it's doable. Or, can just go with old time "rollin' on stuff system" when we do runs together with The Scorned :)

But in general, the point system is one of the best ways to manage the guild raids and loot. Note, I did not say perfect, because there is NO perfect system and the point system has it's little darker sides too. But, most sides are actually good and benefit the guild and guild members quite well.

Let me give you an example, from EQ: when I joined the so-called 'uber raiding guild' there, then by their standards I was wearing rags and wielding sticks not worth to even hit the mob with (no, no one said it, I saw it when I looked at their char profiles). I started off with nice and round 0 points and by their rules, the trialists can't even roll on anything during the trial period, although they will gain the full raid points per raid. Only way the trialists could get some items were if no one else on the raid needed that item, and then the trialist had to spend points according to rules. So, basically for a month I was raiding with a guild, still in rags, not getting even any loot, but collected the points. Did I feel bad? No, because I had fun about the participation alone already and I knew that I was earning the points. So what that some cool weapons and armor passed my char, because I had no points to bid with yet and wasn't even allowed during the trial period. No biggie. Soon enough I had acumulated enough points, also got some gear from raids because other main chars didn't need some specific drops. And know what? Pretty soon, sooner then I thought, I actually started to see my char gear improve drastically. Because people don't do random bidding on items they really don't need, or just want to sell, with their raid points. Points are spent on stuff they really need, all who need have the chance to bid, not to mention that a lot of gear will at some point simply end up in your posession for minimum amount of points due to others already having it, and those who really don't need didn't spend their points on that item (oh, if someone wonders why trialists couldn't bid on items in that guild, then that was to see whethe the trialist is a guild material, instead of letting the char gear up during the trial period, and then disband, run off and join other guild or sell the char on ebay).

In WoW right now we even have more lenient system, because we're bidding only on BLUE and BETTER items. All greens which are BoE or BoP, basically greens, get rolled between all (and if someone needs and will use that item, they even get that item and spend no points!). No such system was used in EQ, there you bid on EVERYTHING. So the random rolling part is still in the game and we all know that sometimes, plenty of greens can actually beat the purple items or even blue items by far with better stats and effects. So you had no points to bid yet on that blue item. But your pack is heavier from the 7 green items you won on rolls - I'd say it's still a "win" situation :) As for chanters, then even while we do random the shards, everyone can STILL simply give that shard to the guild chanters and thus allow them to give the free enchants to the guild members. And the greenies as well.

So, the way I see it, we have actually pretty relaxed and good system. Additional options and stuff can be figured out during the trial period, but all in all it is really the best system to make the guild more effective.

[Banadan]

well I disagree we didnt have the right classes for scholo or strat (no aoe from either mage or warlock) as we tried for like half an hour to look at the alternatives and eventually had to get a random mage.

You can do it quite well without AoE's, at least in Strat and Scholo. Frankly everywhere, simply AoE's make it in many cases much easier (provided that them squishies are kept alive :D ) and faster, but if none is around, it's still doable :)

[Porthos]

Don't forget we are only trying this out for 2 weeks and we may decide to only use this for MC / Onyixa raids... :)


I "might" be able to live with that IF we include the alliance in the system

[patricia]

I read all posts regarding this subject but i still see a few flaws with the system. Mainly that low-lvls that get too be high lvls will never be able too bid against the once that are high lvl now.
The problem is that you can only achieve points from lvl 55+ intances. So everyone that is a high lvl now can go and build up there points by raiding. They will then forever be the ones who can opt-out on the highest gear in the game. As an argument against that i heard that after a while everyone has there uber-gear. This is true atm because oure lvl-s are still capped at 60. Lets imagine Blizzard implements new and higher lvl instances, will the dkp system then be capped on those? And how about the new uber- gear is again for the longest highest lvls first?
Don't get me wrong. I think there is something too say for the system, but there should really be tought about implementing the system for all instances. If a lvl 20 goes into VC he should get dkp points too. Not as much a for killing onyxia, no way even, but enough too earn him some points when he becomes a higher lvl.
I think this makes the system mutch fairer as you all get some points too spent after getting your char up. It also makes the system a little les depending on playing time.

well just my 2 cents

[aresmares]

If a lvl 20 goes into VC he should get dkp points too. Not as much a for killing onyxia, no way even, but enough too earn him some points when he becomes a higher lvl.


I have used system(s) like DKP and trust me : Prices DROP faster than you can imagine (but i dont think 2 weeks of trial can show that clearly, prices may rise a bit before they fall).
Wont hurt to give 1 DKP point to alts for every lvl after 45 and 2-3 DKP for every lvl after 55 so they will have some DKPs on their First Raid to bid on something.
With 20-25 DKP they will be ablle to get some really good gear.
Or allow (limited?) transfer of DKP from main ones.

VC? ask him how many times he has died to dress our alts.
They Dont need any DKP from him. HE needs a monument :p

[Tapja]

I have used system(s) like DKP and trust me : Prices DROP faster than you can imagine (but i dont think 2 weeks of trial can show that clearly, prices may rise a bit before they fall).


Ok ok, I know I promised not to post here anymore... but I just cant ignore this one... I too have had experiences with pretty much every conceivable system from flatrolls to weighted rolls to pure points systems. And I can safely tell you that prices in general do not drop. Oh sure, on some pieces, but the price for the best gear will never drop. The more contested and rarer a piece of equipment is, the higher it will go. Yea sure, the blue set prices will fall, but the loot from MC/Onyxia will not (at least not before the next big thing gets implemented by Blizzard).

[Banadan]

The problem is that you can only achieve points from lvl 55+ intances. So everyone that is a high lvl now can go and build up there points by raiding. They will then forever be the ones who can opt-out on the highest gear in the game.

You answered your own question Patricia. By the time the lower level char levels up, the higher levels ones have already aquired the items needed from those instances. So when the lower level, who is now also 60, starts to run through those same places, they will basically pick things up from left and right for minimum prices, and only "opponents" are other lower level people, who got to 55+ now and have basically the same amount of points. It wont even matter when Blizzard adds another expansion and new levels and what not - so the 'older' higher level has more points, yes, but how many of those "big bad" 2H swords or powerful armors he can use at once anyway? Right, just one. And (s)he'll have to bid against other 'older higher level' players who also have many points, and they spend a lot to get it. The 'newer higher level' may not get that item as soon as it drops - no biggie, the item will drop more. Not like we're going to do only a single run into some area. The 'newer' person will get the item too, tad later but will get and for significally less points, even.

To Tapja: the loot from Onyxia/MC is actually not really an issue. Armor sets what it drops is basically just like the blue ones, restricted to the class (and armor sets are actually the main loot target on these runs anyway). So there will be no price raise really on those items. Sure, some first drops may get bid on for big points by class representatives who have been raiding more, so what? They can still wear only one piece per slot from that set, and when the same set piece drops again, that means that there's one less competitor - winner of the same piece from last time is out of the roll, naturally :)

The weapons and such from Onyxia/MC - these are somewhat special case, as these may have to be looked upon from 'different' point of view. There are, for example, weapons dropping from there which can be used by many classes, but which at first should really go to those classes, who actually are up, close and personal with the mob (e.g. warriors who tank). Once those are sorted, they'd go further to those classes who can also use, but don't have melee damage as their main damage output. Same for ranged weapons - pull can be done even with crappy grey newbie weapon, but only the ranged attack class will really put it to good use, so the tank classes would have no business with getting the high end ranged weapons before the ranged classes. But I believe that this would be monitored and guided by officers once we get there and start getting such drops.

[Ramiraz]

Sure, some first drops may get bid on for big points by class representatives who have been raiding more, so what? They can still wear only one piece per slot from that set, and when the same set piece drops again, that means that there's one less competitor - winner of the same piece from last time is out of the roll, naturally

I see your point with this Banadan, but remember that it also holds true for our current system. If someone wins a roll, he/she is out of the competition next time it drops, thereby raising the chances of the other rollers.

[Banadan]

Yes Ramiraz, it is so, but it goes back to the other point made back in few threads - if you're a priest who has been on the, say Drakki run for 25 times already, see the robe drop and then finally roll on it.. And lose it to the other priest who came for the first time, then it's not really that fair? :) You have helped numerous guildies on those runs to get through, equip up, get the bloods and what not else, so you basically have earned all rights to get that item first. Sure the priest who joined for the first time also performed well and worked hard to get the Drakki down, but what counts here is this 25 vs 1 runs. For things to be fair, it should be you who gets the first dibs on it. Rolling is not good even because someone might just get their alt on the run and simply outroll you, main char. Can't tell then not to roll, because both need it. With points there's no such thing - mains have more points, alts can't use main char point pool and with point system, in general the mains come always first.

It wont leave that other priest high and dry though, because (s)he got other things on the way up, what you most likely passed because you already have them or better items. Also, that other priest gets the points for the run and saves them up for next time, while you just spent points to get your robe. So in the end, that newer priest is still in better position then before entering - aquired various loot from the run, gained more raid points and one competitor on the robe is now out of the way :D

There's no need to participate on every point run to be able to get items. Enough if the person participates on some runs. I know that I can't make every run and there will be paladins, who can join for more runs then I do and will be able to outbid me - so be it, I get the item another time then.

[aresmares]

[quote] the loot from Onyxia/MC is actually not really an issue.
The very first benefit from DKP system is A REALITY!
We all do speak like we have just killed Onyxia and must split the loot.
Morale is very important and i like that!

[Ramiraz]

I think the mayor difference in our views lie in a simple thing. Whiles you view all the raids a person as been on as a connected thing, while I view each raid as a separate situation, where one does not affect the other.

therefor, in my mind, the priest who has been on 25 runs, has the same " right " to roll for an item as the priest who is a first timer, since the more raid experienced priest other runs does not affect the current run.

The priest who has much more time for raiding will still have a higher chance to get the robe than the 1st timer, simply because he/she will have more time to go on more runs than the 1st timer.

I can see how you could compare the raids, if it was 25 runs with the same 15 people, but once you start to add in new people, it becomes a separate event, which cannot be compared to the other raids without favorising the ones that already has a higher chance for the items.

[Dojun]

Have thought some more about DKP now. I will go away for ca 3 weeks at the end of the summer, what will happen to my DKP then? 3 weeks MC reset is 6-7 days or something. That would mean i "lose" around 100 points no?
And as Banadan said before some people allready have all their set and dont have to spend points on it. That is not fair, it will mean that a person that have all set/tank items/items wanted can save all the points they get from raids till Onyxia and outbid everyone else. This is a problem i say since we all dont started from a new begining when the DKP went live.

[Banadan]

I am probably already repeating myself, so I will just give again this example, based on Everquest. And before someone says that in WoW things are different, no, they are not different in this area: raiding, getting points, spending points on loot. The system is basically exactly the same (with the exception that in WoW we don't even bid on 'green' items, these go with rolls still, which is even more 'easier' system then in EQ, where you bid on everything!).

Basically, as I wrote once, I joined the guild and my gear sucked when compared to rest. I stated with 0 raid points, while long time raiders had already anywhere from 3000+ points to 4000+ points. See the difference? They were better equipped then I was, though (which is same in WoW, because the "old time 60's" have already most of their set items, better weapons, etc). On the raids to different areas, quite few items dropped what I actually got for myself - why? Because others already had them. Same as in WoW - many 'older' chars have most of their set items, so most likely the set item what drops next will go to new char and for minimum amount of points. In EQ, there also dropped some other cool items, what all the 'old timers' still didn't have and what I, naturally, didn't have either and also wanted. Obviously my few tens of points (by that moment) could not compete with their thousands of points, so I didn't even bother with bidding. The way I saw it was - it's not the last time we're coming to this place, and not the last time this item drops - I'll get it next time. Or maybe next after next, no difference, I will get it. And guess what? I did get it, tad later but I did.

EQ has had many expansions, and all those expansions added content and new loot. So when we went there, obviously I could still not bid like 'old timers' - by this time I had collected few hundreds of points, but they had thousands still. So we got some nice new drop and obviously no one had it. The 'old timers' let the bids fly and numbers grew soon to quite big ones, like few hundred points per single item. I stood away, as I had barely more points then the bids were at already. We moved on and some other new item dropped, and 'old timers' let the numbers fly again. And while I liked and could use all the new items what dropped, I could still not bid as I didn't have the points. Note that at the same time, I like everyone else did still continue earning the points. Basically, after couple more runs the same new items dropped and 'old timers' already had it, so I made my move then and placed my bid, and got the item. Now, look at this - I got the item for 50 points, when the 'old timer' who got it first got it for 470 points, because he was competing with other 'old timers'. Who's the winner here? I am. The gear I already had allowed me to perform good, this item was a nice upgrade and I got it for cheap. This very same item was not too big upgrade to 'old timers', and they paid tens of times more then I did.

And know what? Within 1-2 months of raiding after I joined (and passed the trial) I was already equipped into almost everything new and upgraded, and in total I got it all for much less then the 'old timers' had paid. For MUCH less. I am semi-casual player myself, at times I just can't get into game due to real life things, so I wasn't exactly racking up the points like mad either. I participated when I could and it was sufficient, even more - these 'old timers' had big numbers flying on all new bids, because it was a new item and they wanted it, so soon I actually had even more points then some 'old timers' - because I bid on the item later when they already had it, but I got it for significally less amount of points.

Basically, it works and quite well, and even for those who can raid less times per week then someone else. So what that I didn't get some "new mean shiny thing" as soon as it dropped - I still got it, tad later but got it, and at a bargain to boot. It is not mandatory to get some item as soon as it drops, for the first time. Not like it's the last drop.

@Ramiraz: most of the runs for the guild members have been still with guild members, or most people on the runs have been guildies. It's not that the priest had 25 chances to "win the roll". It's that this priest "lost the roll" or "had nothing to roll on" for 25 times, on the run with guildies (or mostly with guildies). On yet another run when this item finally drops, on run done with guildies, this person still deserves that item if it drops, as a fair thing, instead of first timer pulling it away for 26th time. On guild raids it's not about the 'person', it's about the 'guild', and those 25 runs from that priest mean that he helped the guild 25 times and got nothing. On that 26th run, while both priests worked well and contributed to the success, the 25th run priest should still get it first, due to helping the guild 25 times previously to the victory, while other helped for the first time. It does not mean that the other priest is less appreciated, no, it's simply the fair gesture towards the first priest. Other priest will get that robe soon anyway. Rolling doesn't help here, but points do.

@Sylvana: there's nothing unfair here. Some people will always have more points then others, because they can spend more times in the game then others. It's like saying "Hey not fair, we agreed on grouping together and now you are lvl 60 and I am lvl 1 still because I can log in only once per month" - you don't say that because it's simply the way things go, some have more time to spend on the game, some have less. So you go away or I, and someone else who doesn't, gets more points and wins the Uber Sword of Complete Owning - let him/her, we will smack Onyxia more and that sword will drop more, we'll get it too at some point.

As for charging the people for their items what they already have before the DKP points went in - that wouldn't work, because we would have to then backtrack all the guild runs done into the instances in the past as well and give the points for those runs, and then take off the armor costs. Which would mean that suddenly some people would have hundreds of points, while rest still be at couple of tens points, or couple of points. Rather we all start fresh, that's more balanced :)

[Peete]

I have a few questions:
First of all, who came with this idea ?
Probably not an old legionnaire as it isn't in the old Legion spirit at all...
What is the point of this rule ?
Is it to ensure that hardcore gamers get best items 1st ?
In that case, simple change the rule into "hardcore gamers get the loot 1st, casuals just stfu" , because this is what this rule will lead to.

On that 26th run, while both priests worked well and contributed to the success, the 25th run priest should still get it first, due to helping the guild 25 times previously to the victory, while other helped for the first time.
The priest hasn't done 25 times the same instance just to help other, he came there to loot an item, the item hasn't dropped or he lost the roll, too bad for him, but time will change... I don't see why he should get the item 1st.

Renegade Renegreed Legion ftw !

/Tilith

[Daymare]

To be completely honest I think everyone needs to relax about this :)
I wanted to test this out on bloodscalp as well, but apparantly a lot of people are against it so I will wait and see. Anyway, it seems to me that this is the "Server choice" poll all over again. Why not try it for a coupple of weeks and then see what people think?

I must admit that there are many valid reasons not to have this sytem, but I honestly do not like the randomness of the dice. And I support the thought that those who do a lot for the guild should be rewarded for such. I feel this is the best way of doing it. What would you all say if Gromagrim or Nikodemus said. you will all pass this hammer of uber1337ness because Bandana has done so much for the guild that he deserves it?
I dont think that would be taken very well :)

this however, is a better system, because here you can document that he did do something for the guild. He did go to UBRS, and because his fantastic robe of devout, as in the example earlier in this thread, did not drop. He gets a bigger chance to get it next time. You must remember that when he finally get this, a lot of his points are removed, and after this he might still go to UBRS to help you out. Now he has no reason to go there, but he will get a few points for helping out. Isn't that fair?

Please note that I am not on anyones side here, I simply am interested in seeing how it turns out after having been tested out for a while. I do not see a great economical loss in the horizon just because you try it out for two weeks :rolleyes:

Yes I know it is easy for me to say, but I think I would have thought so even though I was that casual gamer.

[Gaetano]

I have a few questions:

On that 26th run, while both priests worked well and contributed to the success, the 25th run priest should still get it first, due to helping the guild 25 times previously to the victory, while other helped for the first time.
The priest hasn't done 25 times the same instance just to help other, he came there to loot an item, the item hasn't dropped or he lost the roll, too bad for him, but time will change... I don't see why he should get the item 1st.

Renegade Renegreed Legion ftw !

/Tilith

Interesting definition of greed there... person who's done the instance 25 times and thus feels like he's entitled to a drop is greedy where as some first timer who thinks he should have "equal chance" to get it by rolling isn't?

I just got one thing to say to the people who tend/want to think instance runs as "separate": Go do BRS/Strat/Scholo/whichever 25 times. Then go do them 25 times more. THEN come back and say that you'd gladly give a first timer "equal opportunity" to get a drop that you still haven't gotten with those 50 runs (so yeah I haven't done 50 myself, only about 30 in Strat and would've needed half that with the DKP system).

And as I've stated before, I will not do any Onyxia/MC raids with the happy-go-lucky rolling system. Sure you might not need me as much as some priest, but as far as hunters go I think I'm one those that you want, given some recent (and repeated) results with a certain addon.

[Tarlin]

Im not gonna start some discussion about loot systems and how someone is more entitled to a drop than someone else, however I will say that im not gonna go on any RL raids that has this system implemented for 2 reasons! 1) This system has a few flaws that I dont realy like, where the first being that it closes the guild from inviting anyone along whos in alliance guild <Scorned>. 2) I didnt join Minions of Mithril or Sin! ... If I wanted to join a lootwhoring guild I would have gone there.

I did talk to Groma about this system and thought thats a great idea at first ... however after thinking it through and reading all the above posts this system just pops open a pandoras box of greed/loot whore feelings in me that I dont realy enjoy ......

we have casual player members, and we have hardcore gamer members. I will not be going to a Onyxia raid to loose the chance to roll on a priest epic robe because I didnt have time to join in on the last 10 guild raids <so I couldnt get points> that was planned on a weekday starting at 9pm <as freaking usual> so I couldnt join because I have to log at 10-11pm latest! I simply dont have time to do raids at night when its a weekday and I simply wont be spending all nights on a game in the weekends because OMG! I need points or some other guild priest will outbid me on the Onyxia robe next week when were killing her ... im not gonna spend my time helping people get all theyre shit just so they can go elsewhere when im the one needing the help getting something for myself ....

This system is good for hardcore players ... im not one! therefor :-) im against it! discussing it with me wont make me change my mind as I've thought this through well enough, and pardon my saying this is not because im 14 and im crying, im not whining! im just stating my opinion and saying that if this is how its gonna be done from now on? I'll be leaving the guild and going elsewhere to play for fun, as that is why I play games! not because I wanna discuss with people over something as dumbassed as pixels, but because I enjoy meeting new people and spending time with friends! :p I'll see what gets decided in 2 weeks when the trial is over on this thing :) then I will make up my mind about whats gonna be going down!

[Gunhead]

I thought the guilds in WoW were for same purpose as outfits in Planetside: to play with peeps you know and who's company you've learned to enjoy and who's playstyle links with yours to make everyone enjoy themselves - to work as a group. As well as meeting some new people and have a few shits & giggles.

At least that's what i personally prefer in a game instead of grinding-grinding-grinding the same old (airborne ops in PS doesn't count though since every drop goes different and it's so damn fun) to get one piece of kit which'll allow you to take 3 more points of punishment...

This debate reminds me of the unfortunate affairs back then when there were some people using the Renegade Legion in PS as their personal xp-factory. Need i say that it didn't end well that one.

Lets loosen up a tad. It's just stuff, there's more to the game than that.

[Gaetano]

I didnt join Minions of Mithril or Sin! ... If I wanted to join a lootwhoring guild I would have gone there.


Interesting definition again.

I ask everyone, which is the lootwhore: someone who expects to be rewarded for long time commitment to the guild and raiding, or someone who joins the guild at level 60 and expects to immediately go to Onyxia/MC and roll for anything/everything he/she wishes?

[faith]

also awaiting results of trial - and what ppl think (doesnt even apply to me just yet....)

aint even gonna touch with a v long pole th whole 'who deserves it more' debate.... was sumtimes an iffy issue bk in daoc (arti's) - but we always as a guild let the person who'd been trying to get it longest and helped other guilders get there stuff loot it... knowing our turn would come....

one benefit I can see from some kind of loot system.... it will stop the problem (which will develop at some point)... of ppl joining to get all uber-items so they can sell account shortly after or a few m8s joining - using guild then leave and set up own guild once they fully loaded...was a v annoying and disheartening side of daoc :(

and yeah, I play for fun - to me a guild shud be more about m8's and fun and fellowship than trying to be uber-l33t or arguing about loot..... BUT would I be pissed if after slowly grinding up after weeeeks in guild... sum high lvl priest joins, does a run and gets some uber-item I crave? probably :) but then again... I would get over it :) shit happens, life aint fair, gaming aint fair.... am presuming also no-one here is a saint - we play chars we like, we all want to be rich and well decked-out.... but I think we/I have some vague morals and sense of 'fair play' - not sure how I'd respond to having it ALL dictated to me....

so... am waiting and seeing how it goes :)

[TheIcon]

I had desided not to rant and post more ... but as always someone posts something that sets the little grey ones in motion.


Mr. Hardcore gamer dose 50 raids in UBRS and earns his keep with a hugh bloody pool of points to spend, but Mr. Hardcore gamer has a little thing called vacation that has been forced on him by his mean parrents (yes Mr. Hardcore is living at home and goes to school ... DO NOT TAKE THIS PERSONALY ... THAT INCLUDES YOU OVER THERE !) and is away from the game for quite sometime

Mr. Casual Reallife who has a job and two kids in a minivan and a nagging wife that dosent let him play as much on workdays as he'd like. Now he has vacation and gets everyone worked up into a frenzy about Molten Core because he only has a week and wants to wack of Ragnoswhateverhisnameisanyway.
(Side note : Mr. Casual only has around a 1/10 the points of Mr. Hardcore gamer)
Mr. Casual runs the raid everyday for a week getting each boss down, and on the last day Mr. Hardcore gets home from vacation and joins the raid as its short on wtfpwn guys in kick ass equipment. Mr. Hardcore gamer has 10 times the amount of points as Mr. Casual but has done 1/7th of the foorwork to get this far and kill old man R. Yet with his load of points he goes and outbids Mr. Casual on the Orange hammer that dropped that they both can use, Mr. Casual goes ... WTF I worked my ass off all week just for this little lad can log on one night and use up his banked points with no work put into it.

This is the flaw of the system the way I see it, you can earn points in less demanding instances and then do a late entry and blast off in ninja style on the good stuff.

Im all for a pointsystem IF its used for instances like Molten Core where there is a needed amount of footwork to be done. Frankly I cant see why doing UBRS 12 times a week should earn you the right to an item in Molten Core.

[Rebel]

you guys keep talking as people are going to horde points!

look at the end of the day - mr hardcore plays more with the guild etc, and mr casual doesnt.

If mr hardcore has passed on all other items in the lower lvl 60 raids (scholo, UBRS, Strat) i.e he has all better equip and is saving his points, then why should mr casual bypass all the decent items the hardcore guy has done so much for and go straight for epic items?

Another point is that mr hardcore plays more with the guild so it would benifit the guild more for him to have epic items than the casual guy who hardly plays which wont really benifit the guild!

[Carcass]

I think the mayor difference in our views lie in a simple thing. Whiles you view all the raids a person as been on as a connected thing, while I view each raid as a separate situation, where one does not affect the other.

therefor, in my mind, the priest who has been on 25 runs, has the same " right " to roll for an item as the priest who is a first timer, since the more raid experienced priest other runs does not affect the current run.

The priest who has much more time for raiding will still have a higher chance to get the robe than the 1st timer, simply because he/she will have more time to go on more runs than the 1st timer.

I can see how you could compare the raids, if it was 25 runs with the same 15 people, but once you start to add in new people, it becomes a separate event, which cannot be compared to the other raids without favorising the ones that already has a higher chance for the items.
Hear Hear!!
Couldn´t have said it better me self!

Can´t see why people "Whine" every time a item pass them bye...
And especially when the person didn´t do as many runs as he/she did! Then you will see Alot of Whine!
So as you might have guessed,im against the DKP system!
Think its a load of crap! And im beginning to remember all the Kindergarden Trauma :D again because of this discussion :(

Roll for a item! and if you dont get it !!! So fucking what!!! its a GAME not your Life!!!
Beginning to get thicks like in the old D2(diablo) days!!!
Damn its All Kindergarden rubbish....and i just partisapated in it :rolleyes:

As Iron said!
If a item dropp! I can´t see me rool for it! if I dont need it!
And this game should be about friendship and not Greed!
Cause Greed is what this is about,and nothing else IMO

[Ironman]

Quote from other thread. (no personal attack here Niko, don't worry. :D)
Person A helps 25 guildies through the escort quest in BRD. Goes on raids to places where he can't get anymore equipment upgrades - again, and again, and again - because the guild needs his class to get the runs going so the rest of them can get their gear upgraded.

Person B logs on for the first time in two weeks and demands a space in the Onyxia team.

Both A and B go in against Onyxia. The dragon is killed. She drops an uber piece of gear that A and B can use.

Who is greedy?
A that wants the piece of gear for all his work getting the guild there and having fought Onyxia.

or

B that wants the piece of gear for having fought Onyxia.

Edit:
For anyone who thinks this is about us officers wanting "phat loot", here's a rule for you:
- officers have to bid double to beat a bid.
Want that rule? there you go, you got it.

I sortof agree here but let me just make an other example. (The one I fear)

Gamer A does help the guild a lot and get a lot of points.
Gamer B only manages 1 raid during the week and get only a few points.

In the weekend we go and kill Onyxia and an uber item drops. Gamer A has way more point than Gamer B so he wins. No problem there.

One week more where Gamer A helps a lot and Gamer B only manages one raid again and in that raid a good item drops. Gamer B uses around half his points to get that item so he could help the guild a lot more.

In the weekend we go and kill Onyxia again. And again an uber item drops. Since Gamer A has earned a lot of points again and Gamer B only has his few points left Gamer A wins the item again.

Rinse and repeat and it'll take forever for Gamer B to get something cool to brag about.

And I still think we need to find a good and fair lootsystem.

And the officer rule is fine with me. :D

[faith]

gah!

1) TRIAL - as in test, as in not set in stone, as in the whole point is to see how it works/what ppl think... so doesnt deserve WW111 starting over it ><

2) personal sense of fair play - mine would mean that I WOULD NOT roll against the 'tried for same uber-loot item 50x' priest on my first run - cos it would suck

3) GREED - is already present, some ppl have the 'I pay my subs I do what I want' mentality - others may be more thinking of the community and 'what goes around comes around' - I do NOT think this idea was stimulated by greed - just an attempt to 'formalise' a fair play system

and I am generally against any points sytems - but like I said... TRIAL.....and some fairer way of distributing the top-end loot could mebbe work... I have an open mind... and I know that this is NOT yet a rule - just a TRIAL (think I emphasised that enuff????)

also - if you disagree with something - fair enough..... but please remember you are disagreeing with an idea not making a personal attack - and keep it civil - the guild atmosphere sucks atm - and it really shouldn't over this - it's a trial, someone thought it would be beneficial, whether you agree or disagree it surely aint worth so much aggro and grief ><

[Shinigami]

Thanks Faith, my words exactly :)

[Dojun]

Another point is that mr hardcore plays more with the guild so it would benifit the guild more for him to have epic items than the casual guy who hardly plays which wont really benifit the guild!




This is true. Look at IS homepage and look at the points they got, scroll down to Xark no points at all!!!! This is bcz if any of us want to do MC and in a while deathwings lair we will need a MT that can take a beating. So if the "casual" guy would outroll out MT on lets say the wrath breastplate it would be a major stepback for all that wants to go MC and such (I am saying that there are skill difference between our warriors YES) I think we will have to decide if we want to be able to do sucsesfull runs to the hard 4 man instances we will need to make a sacrifice on the loot.

[Tasie]

well put, Faith.. I don't think you emphasised it enough.. It doesn't seem like it can be:P Anyways.. yeah.. I think this one little issue has caused way to much "talk in the corners" and bad mood in general.. And its not even decided on what to do yet...

[Gunhead]

3) GREED - is already present, some ppl have the 'I pay my subs I do what I want' mentality - others may be more thinking of the community and 'what goes around comes around' - I do NOT think this idea was stimulated by greed - just an attempt to 'formalise' a fair play system
Good post Faith.

About the bolded part: people with that mentality have always been rather quickly purged from the Legion when it comes to the Planetside outfit - honestly i can't see why that shouldn't be applied to all RL games. If you put personal gain before the group's interests you have no business being there in the first place imo.

[Fusion]

Look at IS homepage and look at the points they got... Whats the URL?

[Dojun]

http://www.wow-mom.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4

This is the page. Look at Xark

[Isador]

Hello all...

This thread will be closed after this post, as the officers from bouth The Scorned and Renegade Legion are working hard to come up with a new loot-distributing-system, that will suite the needs of as many people as possible.

There can obviously be no pleasing all, but we are trying our best to come up with an optimal solution for bouth Mr. Casual-player, Mr. Hardcore-player and all in between.

The system will be released asap (trying to avoid Blizzard standard for time frame (mis)usage), we just need to iron out all the details.

Please be patient, we are working as hard as we can

Cheers lady's and gent's