Palas and onyxia

[Dojun]

Onyxia. I see with joy the day getting closer and closer when RL are gonna slay the dragon. But one thing i fear is the many paladins we have. I think we have atleast 10 60 palas. Will all be welcome to join or will we have to roll for the honour to come along? Will the best geared ppl go or how will we do?

P.S Might be a good thing to get some more healadins for the run btw (i am willing to become one)

[Nikodemus]

I've got a pretty big post in the making about paladins and Onyxia/MC (actually finished it last night, but it has a very negative tone to it, so will shine it up some).

To put it bluntly, about paladins and Onyx/MC:
Paladins do not contribute enough DPS to justify the extra amount of healing they need when they go into melee against the big bosses.
They can, however, become *extremely* good at healing main tanks - alot better then priests or druids can ever hope to be.

So basically, in those fights, you'll be there to heal, spam purge and give auras and blessings (on that note: mana regen is very important in these fights, and blessing of wisdom is worth roughly as much as 200 points of spirit. Good stuff).
For some fights off-tanks are needed, but we'll probably have plenty of warriors competing for those spots as well :/

[Daymare]

we got the same problem on PvP, not for the guild but basically for the entire server. Too many shamen, who are all extremely good at doing damage (and getting a shitload of aggro ofcourse) and because of this we are commanded to stay back and heal =\

However, this is how it has to be, the only thing I can see myself doing when fighting onyxia, is to spam totems, heals. and try to get aggro if the mt lose it =)

[Dojun]

I am aware of that we will have to become dispellers and healers, but my main question was how will we do with so many paladins that wants to join?

[Nikodemus]

That goes for several classes. We have loads of hunters, rogues, warriors and paladins. Discussed it with Grom yesterday, but we couldn't really come up with anything workable.

But ... well, if we're setting the goal to kill her in as few attemps as in any way possible, then we might have to simply take the people that are best kitted for the job - to get as strong a team as possible. We won't be able to bring everyone along for the first go in any case, that much is for certain :(

[Peete]

We have loads of hunters, rogues, warriors and paladins.

Then it would be smart to completly stop recruiting those classes.

[Nikodemus]

Certainly something worthy of discussion: there's some pros to it for sure, but deffo' also some cons :(

[Banadan]

Well, there are really no 'cons' on stopping the recruiting of those classes - we simply have plenty of them. Not nice to turn someone back because (s)he is yet another rogue/warrior/hunter/paladin, I know, but fact's a fact - we got plenty of those classes and the lack of mages/priests/druids/warlocks becomes a bigger and bigger issue.

[Fusion]

I think its time people with the common classes started leveling some cloth alts, we already have quite a few priests on the way, so a few mages, druids and warlocks would be a smart idea...

[faith]

but you dont want priests... you want... :eek: healadins!!!!! /cry ;)

[Banadan]

Nah, that's just the class envy talks telling like the paladins are such a super healers. They aren't, really. Only one heal which actually heals (a bit over 1500 HP and that ONLY with talent points spent on it), other is just to mend a scratch and doesn't even affect cloth classes at high level. A seal boosts the heal a bit, but still not making any 'uber'. And it costs 600 mana to cast it, which basically - when comparing the ratio of HP healed/mana used - is not good.

Against that the priests, for example, have better direct heals, heals over time, heals for groups, AoE heals.. Talents or no talents. So, yeah, the talks about "paladins superior heals" are just a joke and we need more priests or druids (specced on healing, which is probably not what every druid really wants) :)

Not that I mean there gonna be some powerlevelling going on or something, no no :D

[Nyana]

Im lvl 50 druid now, i can hit lvl 60 by next week i think :)

[Tapja]

Im lvl 50 druid now, i can hit lvl 60 by next week i think :)

Level my rogue to 60 after that then, ok? :)

[Banadan]

As for alts.. I have a warrior alt, but that's more for fun, not to mention that we have plenty of warriors too. I also have a priest alt but not that keen on levelling him, because - despite the priest blowing paladin out of the water in healing area and damage area - I still am not that thrilled to play yet another healer right now.

I do have a mage alt, whom I have levelled to lvl 21. He's not tagged yet as I wasn't at first sure whether I will actually get some levels on his back or no, but now that I have gained some levels with him and plan to gain more - maybe I should tag him, as he's not just a 'random_twink_01' now. I'll see some officer later about this. It IS interesting to play a class, who actually does damage and that already from low level, though I have to remind myself every now and then that it is not a very good idea to take the mobs at times head on and tank them. I may have a decent HP for my level, but my AC sure as hell sucks, heh :D Distance, that's the key, ayup.

[Carcass]

Yup...Mages are very fun to play!
Turned my prime char-->Grond : Warlock to be my alt char.
But hes still usefull making me a buck or two in AH :D

So at the moment ill just struggeling to gain a lot of lvl. with Multebær the Mage!
But experiencing some "trouble" !!
ill allso kind of have a BIG liking towards my new NE Priest ;)
Im no Altmann for nothing hehehe
Prolly never make it to lvl.60

[Nikodemus]

Banadan:
Run the numbers on holy light + blessing of light compared to flash heal, please. I'll get around to posting a whole lot more about it later on, but right now I have a flexbar to config =)

[Banadan]

Look, you don't cast just the Flash Heal and that's that. Paladin heal WILL drain paladin dry of mana over a prolonged fight, and much faster then the priest heals drain the priest, even if they have the equal mana pool. Few days ago you also said on guild char "Yes, my new crit heal record!" and the amount was some like over 4k. Nice. Best crit heals what paladins press out get barely to and around 2.5k. Yes, crit heals are just a chance, but this is also just an example.

Healing efficiency doesn't just come from a single heal spell. As I said, it will take our mana. At the same time, the priest has numerous heals at his/her disposal which heal all better and are all much more mana efficient. I don't dig into numbers because I am just too lazy, but if I would post this idea of paladin being a better healer with his/her heals + Blessing of Light on paladin forums, then that would kill most paladins since they'd choke to death from laugh over that claim. I also have looked, for example, into priests talents - there's quite many talents which reduce mana cost, casting time, increase healing amount and crit chances and what not else for the healing spells for the priest, and all that in Holy talent tree. There are also talents Discipline tree which grant same crit heal chances, 100% spellcasting success even when being beaten on (while paladins have only 70% chance), talents which give 100% mana save when the spell is cast and so on.

Not to mention that you compare Flash Heal - which is priest fast casting small heal - against the paladin biggest heal. Sorry, wrong comparison here: your Flash Heal is basically like our Flash of Light spell. Flash Heal heals target for 812 to 958, plus the bonuses and effects from talents and items, and all that for 380 mana (minus the bonuses from talents, I bet?). Paladin's Flash of Light heals for 343 to 383 for 140 mana, with same casting time and no mana reduction talents (only chance to get mana back from it is if we happen to crit it), no heal increase from talents (talent for it only reduces the mana cost for miniscule amount) and only bonus is the Blessing of Light, which can add up to 115 to that heal. Priests fast heal beats paladin fast heal by far, it's almost as good as our best heal, especially if add all the talents and gear bonuses. And then, the "big cannons": priests Greater Heal, which heals a single target for 2396 to 2674 (plus the bonuses from talents and gear plus crits with talents and 'usual' crits) for 960 mana (minus the talent bonuses) 4 seconds casting time (minus the talents which reduce cast time) and such. Man, this heal is so big that you can cast it on newbie skeleton and he'll pop up as a lvl 60 alive char! And paladin best heal heals a friendly target for 1246 to 1388 (plus a small bonus from talents, making it then heal for a bit over 1500 max) for 580 mana (no mana reduction here in any way, unless I get lucky and get uber armor set), for 2.5 seconds cast time (no cast reducing here in any way). Only 2 bonuses here - Blessing of Light which can add up to 400 to it, making this heal for max 1900 (little bit over) and the occasional crit what we may get with our heals, like the priests can as well. But, priests get a bonuses to crit heal more often then paladins (there are few talents which affect priests crit chance with either healing spells or holy spells or even ANY spell). Against that the paladins can use their only single mana saving and a "oh-look-i-did-2.5k-heal!" talent, which gives for next heal spell 100% chance to crit and returns the base mana cost of the spell. Refresh time - 2 minutes.

Basically, if a priest is Holy/Discipline spec'ed, (s)he will blow the paladin way out of water with heals, there's no way the paladin healing capabilities can be compared to the priest ones and claim that paladins heal - holy Uther's hammer! - better then priests or ever get close to it. Note that I didn't add any heal-over-time spells to that list, which also benefit from talents and equipment, neither the group ones, simply because I have nothing to put up from paladin side against it. And ONLY talents what affect paladin healing power a bit are just the couple first talents in the Holy talent tree - one of them gives to paladin 70% chance not to fail casting the heal while being hit (against priest 100% chance talents), one of them improves the paladin biggest heal some (by 12% max for SINGLE spell, which is way less then numerous talents the priest has for improvements, for ALL spells) and 2 talents, from which one allows to retain the base mana cost if the heal was critical (but there are no talents whatsoever which raise the 'basic' critical chance like the priests have, few) - note, it only allows to save mana when spell is critical, while priest has few talents which save mana of any spell - but it does not give bigger crit chance; and other ensures that next heal spell is critical - but does not raise the amount of critically healed HP, like priest talents do.

EDIT: I also forgot to add, but priests have even talents which raise the target's armor rating after the critical heal, up to frikkin' 25% a pop, and that basically with any heal spell type the priests have! Wish paladins had something like this..

Anywho, sorry for the long rant and maybe incoherent sentences here and there, but the main idea was to show that the claim of "paladins being as good healers as a priest, or even better" is way out of proportion. Heck, if that was so, then our raids wouldn't be stuck at a "no go" situation due to lack of priests, would they? :D Paladins can act as main healers in lower level dungeons, heck, I've been the main and only healer in Sunken Temple (tank too, because warrior was too low level) when we fought the boss mobs, but obviously ST isn't a measuring stick at high levels. Scholo/Strat/BRS/DM is and having the paladin there as main healer and only healer means "oh-hi-spirit-healer-for-the-15th-time".

We can and do act well as secondary healers, and I guess that in a pinch, for a bit, few paladins on a raid can fulfill the role of a single main healer, if the main healer does go down, but note that FEW, that is, more then one, paladins. For a short while these few paladins could heal a single tank well, until their crit heals are used, mana potions are ticking, other mana gain means are also used - then these paladins go OOM fast and tank kissed the floor fast. Especially when there are other raid members who need heals too.

Yeah, we're not DPS class, but I still pull the aggro off of most warriors out there with my damage, if that warrior hopes to keep the aggro of the mob with his/her damage only. Of course, it isn't the damage what the DPS classes do, neither is the warrior a DPS class, but I still can pack some punch. In everyday fights, about 70% - 80% of hits I do against single mob are all around or over 1k, and close and over 2k if I happen to crit with SoC as well. I can consecrate the ground under the mob, which isn't any 'uber' damage, but it is very rarely resisted. Frankly, I have yet to see a mob which resists it, despite it not being that big of a thing. And I know, I am still not a DPS class, but please, don't come tellin' me that I can't do any damage at all. Personal experience shows so far that if the "smacks hit the mob" from me, I can pull the aggro off of anyone with the damage alone, and these "others" can get it back only by laying bigger smack on the mob or taunting them :) I watch my own aggro generally and if I see that I am pulling too much, too often, I stop attacking or switch gear to more 'defensive'. Also the fact that I stop for rebuffing and healing also helps with it, because when I do that, I am not hitting and generating the aggro (well, save with the heals, but the paladin heals aren't that big that they'd generate some mega aggro, like priests big heals do).

[Banadan]

Ha, the current forum title explains well the amount of spam I added in my last post :D

Anywho, some reading never hurt anyone heheh... Sorry if someone feels that it's too much, you don't really need to read it all.

[Nikodemus]

Sorry mate, but you're wrong on every account =)

I'll get going on the big post now to show why :)