Darkfall

[Neraj]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bYYT6Wg3Gg

Interesting concept, not sure if they can deliver it, but interesting

[Grillkohle]

Holy shit. This game actually looks really cool, I like the FPS aspects of it.

[PariaH]

its been looking promising since about 2006 though, and thats the problem, is it ever coming out ?

[Gunhead]

Can only hope, reckon it's another wait'n'see.

On one hand the long ongoing dev time could be put to the vast possibilities and aspects claimed to be featured in the game but then again the long ongoing dev time could be put to Aventurine biting a bigger chunk than they thought they could swallow...

If they manage it it'll deffo be something grand.

[GuardianAnge1]

well, since you can do anything and everything in the game, it'll probably take ages to complete production.

interesting idea though it seems as if it's going to be complete videogaming anarchy

[JojoTheSlayer]

"Its done, when its done." DukeNukem Forever.

[Tapja]

its been looking promising since about 2006 though, and thats the problem, is it ever coming out ?

TF2 was in development for what, 10 years? So theres still hope :)

[WiGgLr]

TF2 was in development for what, 10 years? So theres still hope :)

Well Darkfall has been in development since August 29, 2001, so we're getting there

[Hovis]

I think the lesson to be learned from Vanguard, PotBS, HL2, TF2 and STALKER is that you don't know anything about a game until you've got your hands on it, no matter who makes it or how long they've taken over the development. I've played games that have been in development years that have been great, others that have been terrible.

What inspires caution in this particular case is that Vanguard was all about being an ambitious MMO, and that was because for most of the years of development the lead production bods were pilled off their camels and spent all day fondling elves in their minds. The actual game was mostly done in about two hours on the morning of the release date by a temp. I've learned not to trust people who shoot for the moon with a game. Why I think Blizzard were able to deliver with WoW is because they set out with a spectacularly modest premise; Everquest meets Warcraft 3, no housing, no real RvR, no substantive economy, keep it simple and keep the goals attainable, and they did it. If anything in life sounds too good to be true then it probably isn't.

[Tapja]

More news on this one now. Beta apps and a new 'gameplay' trailer available from http://darkfallonline.com/news/news_1220049855.html

Oh, and btw, a shovel with spikes looks like a kickass weapon ;)

Oh yeah, and a Coming 2008 promise to boot.

[Felstar]

I'll believe it when I see it actually happen :P

[Gunhead]

Pigs took flight: Darkfall's hit beta :eek:

Beta feedback thread @DF boards (http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=82111)

[Gunhead]

Wait... what?!

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/announcement.php?f=29&a=26

The European release date for Darkfall is January 22nd, 2009. Until then the game is only available to beta testers, if you sign up for beta you will be contacted by email IF you are chosen. Any requests for beta access will be ignored.

Vad, sorry mate i thought you were bullshitting me big time.

[Khammar]

Beta Preview @ The Noob:
http://beta.thenoobcomic.com/df_preview/intro.html

Beta First Reactions @ Darkfall Forums:
http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=82111

Bear in mind that The Noob creator is a personal friend of some of the Darkfall devs and receives hosting from the development company, and all the comments have been screened by the devs before posting.

[Hovis]

I think I was pretty soundly put off this by that gameplay video that went up ages ago, showing massive knockback effects and stuff. Might be worth checking out though just for a change of pace.

[Khammar]

To be honest it probably has some interesting stuff in it judging by everything I can read/see.

IMO it's really ugly though. Like I find the art direction fairly hideous and the characters are giving me Vanguard flashbacks (looking like poo and out of place) . . .

I have no clue what they think they're going to sell it for in terms of box fee. 50 Euros won't even get a second glance from me unless all the sudden a massive number of people shit themselves over how cool it is. The box fee on this one will need to be lower than that if they expect to get people online and trying what they have to offer.

Maybe I'm cynical, but it's just not close enough to AAA, has been in development for too long (which CAN be good, mind) and may very well be "revolutionary" because it's a de-evolution of the genre in action.

I've been down on this game for a long time. For many, many reasons. Probably the biggest one being that I want it to be UO/EQ/AC . . . and it is likely to disappoint.

[Taylor]

Literally the only disappointing thing I have read so far is that there are no thieving skills.

It does look like an unwiped arse though, but I don't care, and quite frankly, the type of player that will put off is the type the game can do without.

I just wanna be one of those fucking Dog people. Or are they Cats?

[Khammar]

It does look like an unwiped arse though, but I don't care, and quite frankly, the type of player that will put off is the type the game can do without.

So people with discerning visual sense are a problem because . . . ?

I definitely favor good gameplay over eye candy. However if eye candy were unimportant we would never have stopped playing MMOs released 5-10 years ago. Yet we have. Despite them being more full-featured and polished than new releases.

So yeah. Your comment is just bullshit Tay. ;)

[Daymare]

So people with discerning visual sense are a problem because . . . ?
So yeah. Your comment is just bullshit Tay. ;)

No it isn't. What he means is that people who ignore gameplay because visuals are not top notch are usually console kids. I believe that is his what he was reffering to.

[Hovis]

No it isn't. What he means is that people who ignore gameplay because visuals are not top notch are usually console kids. I believe that is his what he was reffering to.

Now that's just bullshit. It's the primitives living in trees playing consoles that are the ones that can live with shitty graphics, not the civilised PC owners. :D

Graphics are an odd thing to me, because I've been an avid gamer since the monochrome days, so I know I can play anything that looks like anything. In my opinion good graphics are more than polygon counts and shader effects, it's about concept, delivering on that concept and whether the look of the game really draws me in.

The Source engine has shown you don't need raw power to achieve amazing graphics, and all MMOs since EQ2 have been well behind the tech curve for graphics anyway.

What it comes down to for me is do the graphics appeal to me. Take EVE and PotBS as examples. In EVE everything is dark, cos it's space, but your ships are dark and weird looking, there's loads and loads of text, the icons for components and items don't look like anything much and visually it's very hard to engage with. You have to really acquire a taste for it. Compare to PotBS you've got sunshine, bright blue sea, beaches, beautifully rendered ships and chicks with huge boobs and cutlasses running around. It's more immediately engaging.

In WAR and WoW things go the other way, WoW looks cartoony and full of shiny happy people and things like that. WAR is grittier. WoW characters look bizarre in brightly coloured armour with huge glowing weapons and massive scary mounts, WAR characters look more like soldiers in an army than individual heroes and of the two I like the WAR look better.

So coming to Darkfall, well we'll have to see how it goes, but polygon counts be damned, that is a fucking ugly looking game as it is right now. It is not beyond redemption by any means, good combat animations and the like can save it, but I saw that gameplay movie a while back and I'm not holding out too much hope. I mean fundamentally I just can't spend the amount of time it takes to play an MMO properly without having some eye candy. I have not seen one single screenshot that made me think, 'Hmm, that looks interesting' let alone, 'Fuck that looks awesome!'.

Anybody who says graphics don't matter, and means it, would never have stopped playing UO. :D

[Taylor]

No it isn't. What he means is that people who ignore gameplay because visuals are not top notch are usually console kids. I believe that is his what he was reffering to.

Cheers. If you wrote a game off entirely because of how it looked you'd be a fucking idiot.

Anybody who says graphics don't matter, and means it, would never have stopped playing UO. :D

Still play it.

[Flufball]

Yay, more Darkfall, I was begining to think this had fallen into a hole somewhere.

It has the two things I wan't more than anything esle in an MMO. A persistant world that evolves with what you do and allows you to build an empire (sort of) and decent combat. That is to say, proper combat none of this "Press 1 to do spell" "Press 2 to hit with sword" nonsense that's creeping into everything from Spore to Half-Life The MMO.*


* Doesn't actually exist.

I will admit the visuals look shite, but then, if the gameplay is what they promised I won't care too much because I'll be to busy taking over the world and running spy networks on every player organisation I think of. Now all I need is a monocle, a top hat, some sort of mustasche that suggests Evil Genius and bags of money to hire people to do my bidding!

[Gunhead]

Great gameplay/content/story makes up for a lot what any game lacks in visuals. On the flipside great visuals make up for fuck-all if the game's garbage beneath the flashy surface.

Definitely giving this one a go but holding back judgement until i've tried it meself.

[Khammar]

Cheers. If you wrote a game off entirely because of how it looked you'd be a fucking idiot.

Yet people WILL write it off for being ugly, because something has to be at least palatable in proportion with how well it plays. For anyone whose looks to gaming ratio is not met by the title, they'll ditch it. That doesn't mean they only care about looks, or that the game is better off rid of them. It means that apparently the talent in Greece is a bit scarce in terms of art. I hope that they are better at design, so more people can get over the game's general fugly nature.

Still play it.

Which makes you a minority. Most former UO players are . . . former. Last time I played was 2002. Even then it was lacking graphics, though not to the point of being unplayable. Now, despite the fact that it's a good game with a long history, most people have indeed moved on to things that are more modern.

A game that is fugly from the get-go is less likely to maintain longevity barring major work. This is why many titles have undergone upgrades to their engines as part of their ongoing maintenance. Everquest, Dark Age of Camelot, and Ultima Online are all examples of this . . . but each of them looked better to start than Darkfall appears to . . . do with that what you will. It's simply an issue the game has to deal with. Like it or not, fugly is not a selling point. :)

[Flufball]

I was playing Elite yesterday and enjoying it. Does that make me a bad person?

[Taylor]

I'm sure the Devs, or whoever writes their paycheques, would disagree but I would rather have a small playerbase of people who didn't give a shit how it looked than a large PB of graphics whores, but like you said, I'm in a minority (and that's as a player, not from the business model MMOs have adopted).

Don't get me wrong I'd absolutely love it if it looked better than Crysis and better than the average Valve game but let's face it, it's not going to. The MMO standard atm is piss poor and they seem to be aiming ever lower. While that seems to be the price you have to pay for the genre, if dog shit graphics is the further price for a nice sounding concept (in this case full loot, ffa PvP, skills not classes) I would pay it ten times over.

[Taylor]

I was playing Elite yesterday and enjoying it. Does that make me a bad person?

You fucking animal.

[Khammar]

How did you manage to emulate DOS?

[Gunhead]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DOSBox 's one way.

[Flufball]

How did you manage to emulate DOS?

Well, Dosbox is always useful, but I will admit I cheated, I found my old Atari and dug it out to play it. :p

[Khammar]

Anyway.

More players = more money = more profit = more devs = more "revolutionary" MMO designs hit market . . .

Fugly games sell less. Unless they are so fugly they become cool.

So my preference is for non-fugly in games. It makes them last longer and get better maintenance.

If you'd rather have something with 20k subscribers and a 2-man dev team, I can't help you. I've not got a degree in psychology. :)

[Gunhead]

More players = more money = more profit = more devs = more "revolutionary" MMO designs hit market . . .

As proven by Blizzard and WoW... :p

[Khammar]

Well, Dosbox is always useful, but I will admit I cheated, I found my old Atari and dug it out to play it. :p

It was actually a joke of course. :)

I lost enough of my life to Elite. To reinstall now would surely be folly. ;)

[Flufball]

It was actually a joke of course. :)

I lost enough of my life to Elite. To reinstall now would surely be folly. ;)

Lies. Elite is always worth the sacrifice.

[Khammar]

As proven by Blizzard and WoW... :p

No, that's the anti-example.

See, small = fail and big = fail so what you actually want is medium. ;)

The problem with being too small is that nobody wants to make pennies on an MMO, because they take too long so nobody emulates you.

The problem with being big is that everyone wants to make loads of cash . . . so they do emulate you.

The key is to become successful, attract attention, make good money, yet NOT become some kind of huge success story which just results in 20 clones of your product hitting market within 5 years.

That way some people take a page from your book and take a few risks.

[Hovis]

I'm getting a sort of pre-Trammel UO vibe about Darkfall, which if it is accurate means the game is only going to be small. If the non-PvP/non-looting facet of UO had never appeared it would never been as popular.

The thing to understand is that PvP does not sell mass-market MMOs. Good PvP gets you a niche, if you're lucky. It's weird to acknowledge, and I know it doesn't seem possible, but honestly the huge majority of MMO players do not like, or engage in, PvP.

[Daymare]

I disagree.
Most MMO players don't like to engage in PvP that they lose. And that's why you get a problem, because people that lose just leave, and then you get butfucked. And let's face it, the avrage MMOer gets splatted in PvP, hence why he tends to leave the PvP zone quite fast.

On a related note, I thought WAR had some massive Subs? (not wow massive, but massive in general)

[Khammar]

Last numbers I can find indicate 1.2 million sold since release and 800,000 subscribers. That was two months ago.

[Hovis]

Last numbers I can find indicate 1.2 million sold since release and 800,000 subscribers. That was two months ago.

In other words, niche.

[Taylor]

Eve has managed to corner a fairly niche market while still being (mostly) highly original (at least in terms of MMOs).

Full on PvP/looting is going to put a lot of people off. Also, I think I read somewhere on their site something about "If you give it a chance" and whenever that phrase is your gambit, youre already on the back foot. Pre-Tram UO was failing big time and it was probably Tram that saved it, but then AoS went too far the other way and ruined it for a lot of people, so there is definitely a fine balance.

Warhammer name aside I doubt this will pull even half what WaR managed, but as long as the game is good and doesn't fold inside of 12 months I won't give a shit.

[Hovis]

Eve has managed to corner a fairly niche market while still being (mostly) highly original (at least in terms of MMOs).

Full on PvP/looting is going to put a lot of people off. Also, I think I read somewhere on their site something about "If you give it a chance" and whenever that phrase is your gambit, youre already on the back foot. Pre-Tram UO was failing big time and it was probably Tram that saved it, but then AoS went too far the other way and ruined it for a lot of people, so there is definitely a fine balance.

Warhammer name aside I doubt this will pull even half what WaR managed, but as long as the game is good and doesn't fold inside of 12 months I won't give a shit.

Bottom line with EVE is the majority are PvE players.

[Khammar]

My point about graphics has a lot to do with that "if you give it a chance" thing . . . eye candy can keep people interested long enough for the depth of a game to entice them to stay. Fugly is just a turnoff usually.

Like I said: liking a lot of what Darkfall claims to offer. But yeah, you can't JUST offer a bunch of cool features and not deliver on the packaging, because people won't even bother to give you a chance in some cases.

Shallow, perhaps, but I think a lot of people (and particularly men) are very much interested in what they see . . . which is why we talk about how good a car looks, or how sexy an actress is . . . despite the fact that the car does 0-60 in 4.2 and the actress has three academy award nominations.

[Khammar]

I really don't wanna be a bitch, but around a million subs isn't any more niche than anything BUT WoW.

[Taylor]

Bottom line with EVE is the majority are PvE players.

I don't see how that makes a difference.

I tend not to "do" Betas so I don't know if its full public or not, but is anyone IN the beta for this?

[Hovis]

I really don't wanna be a bitch, but around a million subs isn't any more niche than anything BUT WoW.

A little bird tells me it's closer to half that. On the low side. Maybe 400k, probably lower now.

[Khammar]

SS o GTFO.

[Khammar]

I tend not to "do" Betas so I don't know if its full public or not, but is anyone IN the beta for this?

It's a private beta currently, and I don't know of anyone who is in it.

[Daymare]

In other words, niche.

oh seriously hovis, pull your face out of your ass. No point arguing when you continue to insist that up is down and sun is cold. If you ask ANY mmo developer (not publisher) they would be DELIGHTED to get 1,2 MILLION subs.
A really good AAA title sells a few million copies, and they don't keep getting money each month like an MMO does.

ps: also if you say it's a niche because you believe it's 400k, AFTER somone said it's 1,2 million, and then argue your own belief without having stated it, thats quite flawed arguing technique :P

[Ludicrouse]

If you ask ANY mmo developer (not publisher) they would be DELIGHTED to get 1,2 MILLION subs.

QFT.

World of Warcraft and its never ending supply of Chinese Subscribers is nothing more than an aberration in the Genre. Until WoW appeared a game that had more than 750,000 subscribers was considered a massive success.

To say that getting 800,000 or 400,000 subscribers is nothing more than a Niche market is both wrong, stupid and showing a complete lack of understanding concerning the MMO market which in all honesty as a Journo, Hovis should know much better for the benefit of reviewing games.

[Bagpuss]

Who is the smarter businessman ... The guy who develops and sells 1.2 million copies of a single player game, or the guy who develops an mmo that sells 400,000 copies to subscribers who are paying $12 per month to play it?

[Daymare]

buisnessmen don't develop anything, developers do :P
derail ftw.

[Khammar]

If you think that's the case, you won't have a very long career when you finally get a chance in the industry Day.

Games are, first and foremost, a business. Devs who remember that succeed.

[Ludicrouse]

Games are, first and foremost, a business. Devs who remember that go into Space while the MMO they created gets closed down.

Fixed ;)

[Khammar]

Well, Garriot did succeed realistically speaking. Long career with some great games, so yeah, I suspect he counts as a successful businessman, regardless of the fact that TR died. UO is still going after all.

[Hovis]

He's not getting paid for UO any more though is he?

[WiGgLr]

Last numbers I can find indicate 1.2 million sold since release and 800,000 subscribers. That was two months ago.

In other words, niche.

Yeah right http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

In other words, above average subscribers if you discount WoW. That is tremendous for a game so close to release.

[PariaH]

what game are people arguing about , i'm lost :o and want to join in.

[Khammar]

Since this is about Darkfall we are arguing sub numbers for WAR.

[Hovis]

Yeah right http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

In other words, above average subscribers if you discount WoW. That is tremendous for a game so close to release.

These days games go down from release, not up.

[Khammar]

This is not true of all titles.

[Hovis]

This is not true of all titles.

Show me a game released these days that has bucked the trend.

[Ludicrouse]

Show me a game released these days that has bucked the trend.

EVE.

[Ardesco de la Furia]

EVE.
But its too hard and there are too many things you have to do to get to the pvp and wah wah wah. Wonder who i sound like. :shinner:

[Ludicrouse]

But its too hard and there are too many things you have to do to get to the pvp and wah wah wah. Wonder who i sound like. :shinner:

I have no idea! ;)

[Daymare]

If you think that's the case, you won't have a very long career when you finally get a chance in the industry Day.

Games are, first and foremost, a business. Devs who remember that succeed.

Ok, i'll try to put this a way that you understand it then. Don't have any really small spoons at the moment, but the regular tea spoons will have to suffice. You see, there's these companies called publishers, and these companies called developers. The publishers give money to the developers to develop a game. That's the way it works, developers don't have any money, publishers give them money, and then (hopefully) profit from the developers work. Was that clear enough for you? If not I can try and write in a different language if that will help you understand.

oh yes, and before anyone comments on it, yes you did strike a nerve.

[Ludicrouse]

Tbh, Kham is correct in a way. Take Vanguard as an example. SOE and MS gave Sigil the money to make the game but it was all down to Sigil how it was spent. Brad McQaid was the CEO and ultimatley proceeded to piss almost $100m up the wall because he couldnt manage his business. These days a Developer isnt the same as it used to be, some bearded guy in a small officer typing out thousands of lines of BASIC to make a few pixels move just for the pure love of his work. These days a Developer is much more business like and it is reflected in the way these companies are run. Just look at how many Developers go under these days due to poor sales...

[Daymare]

Well that's pretty much what I just said, A developer is given money buy a publisher (they buy a service, fund a project, what ever, depending on the way the deal was established) and the DEVELOPER develops the project, this means, my point was that the Publisher does nothing when it comes to actually creating the game (except make demands for extra features or similar) It's the developer that does that part. I don't really know how it's possible to not understand what im saying.

[Ludicrouse]

*Sigh*

[Gunhead]

But that Darkfall, eh? Might be a bril game unless it sucks!

[Daymare]

*Sigh*

Yea, that's what I thought as well.

[Marmars]

Looks interesting :>

[Daymare]

But that Darkfall, eh? Might be a bril game unless it sucks!

Smells of too long development and too many unrealistic dreams and promises if you ask me =) almost like conan except conan didn't have development time either :p
I must admit I don't know that much about this game, however I have read a lot up on it, and if they can deliver on everything they promised they might be capable of pulling something off, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Gunhead]

Like said, planning on giving it a go and judging myself. Prejudice is not a perk to put on a CV.

[Hovis]

EVE.

Game released 'these days'. EVE is ancient.

[Ludicrouse]

Game released 'these days'. EVE is ancient.

Define "These days" then, you ignoramus. Sadly there is no clear information on subscriber numbers for the past six months, the latest figures show that Second Life, LOTRO, POTBS and "Doofus" were all still increasing in subscriber numbers bar a few temporary dips.

Regardless, EVE is literally the perfect example. Its "ancient" yet still increasing its subscriptions even in the torrid climate of Post WoW Release. That alone destroys your argument.

[Khammar]

the Publisher does nothing when it comes to actually creating the game (except make demands for extra features or similar) . . .

I'm not being a dick Day, I've worked on an MMO. If you don't know who you have to keep happy when you develop, you will simply not succeed. That means being a smart *businessman* as well as a developer.

You can piss all over my advice if you want, but if you ever do actually break into the industry and you start dealing with those people who "have nothing to do with development" I suspect within a week you'll be thinking about what I've said here.

Demands for extra features is the tip of the iceberg. The people with the money call the shots. It's the way of the world. And no, the "smart ones" don't just let the developers do their job. The SMART ones simply weigh the opinions of the developers with other factors. That does often mean that the devs are required to bend. That's not a bad thing. Sometimes devs have ideas that look "cool" but in a real world situation (a released product) will end up being a nightmare. It is the job of the publisher (who often assign a producer, or multiple producers to a project for oversight) to make sure that the product being developed is marketable. A publisher who does not do this and simply lets the developers "do their thing" is incredibly stupid, and not likely to remain in business.

So you can be as patronizing as you want, but industry veteran to hopeful student, you've got a lot to learn and if you're not willing to listen to the advice given to you by those with firsthand knowledge, you're gonna run into a load of pain when you start to realize that the ideal world of "freedom" to do what you want as a dev is an illusion . . . even in indie development.

Keep your eyes on the money. It's what drives the software development industry . . . among others. :P

[Hovis]

Define "These days" then, you ignoramus.

This last year or two. I wouldn't have thought it was too much of a surprise that these days didn't include games released in 2003. EVE is the very reason I added the qualifier 'these days'. I would be very surprised by any game, particularly big titles like Conan and WAR, that could grow to match its launch population further down the line because the population drop off rate is usually brutal. I mean for Age of Conan we saw however many RL bought the game reduced to a playing population of how many? One? None? I don't know what the deal with WAR is, but I noticed when I patched it the other day that the server my toons are on, that was initially cloned at launch due to overpopulation, was listed as wanting more players. That's not saying the game is doomed or even unhealthy, that's just how things go. They launch, they lose players, then if they are very good the loss of players decreases and new players come in, or the loss of players just continues forever. The games that have grown have been EVE, which has been continuously promoted and very well served with free add ons, and WoW, which broke into the non-gamer market.

How this relates to Darkfall is anybody's guess though. I'm not going to check it out unless I get paid to. Which seems to be the way I check out most MMOs these days.

[Bagpuss]

*patronising crap* ... You see, there's these companies called publishers, and these companies called developers. The publishers give money to the developers to develop a game. That's the way it works, developers don't have any money, publishers give them money, and then (hopefully) profit from the developers work. Was that clear enough for you? If not I can try and write in a different language if that will help you understand.

oh yes, and before anyone comments on it, yes you did strike a nerve.

I'll strike another one now then. You're wrong.

Investors give software developers money to produce a software title, and this isnt quite as straight forward as "Hey investor dude gimme money for stuffs". Its based on a multitude of things that not only include the functionality of the product but also market projections, finnacial spend projections, business plan, project plan, Risks & Issues, stability of the software house, finnacial stability of the software house, track record... the list could go on for quite some time. To produce any of this the software house HAS to have its own capital to spend, without it none of this list can be completed with any realistic proffessional level of detail required for a multi million $ project. This is one of the reasons why established development companies can churn out software and the start-ups fail faster than a one legged ginger kid at an arse kicking competition.

Traditionally the Publisher would be dealing with the packaging, publicity, distribution, and sales of a product, not the actual creation of the said product. Nor would they be finnacing the creation process in any way. There may, however, be a finnacial solution to the publishing deal once Royalties and IP are sorted out in the form of an "Advance" on said royalties or sales.

Publishers like SoE are a special case because they do have the capability to be "Investors" at the same time. What you described Daymare is not investment its a Comission and a comission is an entirley differnt kettle of fish from an investor, its also the exception rather than the rule.

I cant write this up in a different language but i could [potentially] point you in the right direction to differentiate between the two with a couple of investment bankers and record company bods who are friends of mine who do this for a living every day of the week.

[Gunhead]

The games that have grown have been EVE, which has been continuously promoted and very well served with free add ons, and WoW, which broke into the non-gamer market.

Just from Wig's link two more mmos that have since their launch nothing but grown: Dofus and Runescape - both of which top EVE's subscription numbers with a rather large margin (Dofus double, Runescape 4-5 times the subs of EVE). Hell, even FFXI has grown heaps since launch and steadied to healthy numbers (again roughly double EVE) after a bit of a spike.

Passing (limited) personal information as a fact is foolish indeed.

[Hovis]

Just from Wig's link two more mmos that have since their launch nothing but grown: Dofus and Runescape - both of which top EVE's subscription numbers with a rather large margin (Dofus double, Runescape 4-5 times the subs of EVE). Hell, even FFXI has grown heaps since launch and steadied to healthy numbers (again roughly double EVE) after a bit of a spike.

Passing (limited) personal information as a fact is foolish indeed.

Runescape again is as old as the hills. Dofus I don't know about as a game. In fact having seen the website for it I know even less. Still it's four years old. This is 2009 folks. 2004 is a loooong time ago.

The trend for those games is a lot like EVE though, they started very small and grew, rather than having that big launch spike followed by a sharp fall, then a slower fall, they just seem to grow. It's an interesting way of doing things but not sure if it works if you've got a super-high development and marketing cost.

I do think there's a case for saying those sorts of game that grow organically from nothing, rather than depleting from an initial high-point, might have a better chance of long term survival though. I don't know if you could make a modern MMO on that business model though because these days you need so much content the budget has to be really big. One of the really smart things about EVE is the setting, you can make the game staggeringly huge and it's only a tiny bit of work compared to making a similar sized walky around world.

Given all the hype that Darkfall hasn't got I guess it's going to be trying the grow from a small seed approach, so maybe they are playing it smart and thinking long term.

[Daymare]

I'm not being a dick Day, I've worked on an MMO. If you don't know who you have to keep happy when you develop, you will simply not succeed. That means being a smart *businessman* as well as a developer.

You can piss all over my advice if you want, but if you ever do actually break into the industry and you start dealing with those people who "have nothing to do with development" I suspect within a week you'll be thinking about what I've said here.

Demands for extra features is the tip of the iceberg. The people with the money call the shots. It's the way of the world. And no, the "smart ones" don't just let the developers do their job. The SMART ones simply weigh the opinions of the developers with other factors. That does often mean that the devs are required to bend. That's not a bad thing. Sometimes devs have ideas that look "cool" but in a real world situation (a released product) will end up being a nightmare. It is the job of the publisher (who often assign a producer, or multiple producers to a project for oversight) to make sure that the product being developed is marketable. A publisher who does not do this and simply lets the developers "do their thing" is incredibly stupid, and not likely to remain in business.

So you can be as patronizing as you want, but industry veteran to hopeful student, you've got a lot to learn and if you're not willing to listen to the advice given to you by those with firsthand knowledge, you're gonna run into a load of pain when you start to realize that the ideal world of "freedom" to do what you want as a dev is an illusion . . . even in indie development.

Keep your eyes on the money. It's what drives the software development industry . . . among others. :P

Yea, sure. I'll listen to people that don't start with telling me that if I don't listen to him I will never be good at my job, thanks anyway though. I don't doubt that you know what you are talking about, but you sure got a seriously shitty way of giving out advice. Anyway, im not going to bother arguing this anymore, as I am saying pretty much the same as you are, just with a bit different wording, so not going to bother.

And for bagpuss, the same thing applies here, of course the world isn't exactly what I said in three lines of text, but isn't that pretty obvious? I just don't get what the point is with telling me that; "No, what you said is wrong because you didn't write a detailed enough description compared to mine" a black box is still a box.

[Gunhead]

Runescape again is as old as the hills. Dofus I don't know about as a game. In fact having seen the website for it I know even less. Still it's four years old. This is 2009 folks. 2004 is a loooong time ago.

Point in case is that asking to be shown an mmo game released "these days" that shows consistent growth in player numbers over time is like asking someone what time they'll be taking a dump next june 13th.

Of course there'll be spikes in subscription numbers especially now in the post-WoW-phenomenon mmo scene where a big portion of the release spike consist of specifically WoW players who are looking for something different or THINK they're looking for something different (while they actually want to keep playing but try something to nitpick every little detail to confirm to themselves how much better this and that is done in WoW) and failing to find something to please them fall back to WoW.

WAR might be something to buck the trend and keep growing steadily over time. AoC at this time seems like a spectacular failure but it's not impossible for it to recover. LOTRO's in general rather underappreciated as i understand but i've heard the new expansion's a damn good one. Then there's a bunch of low-profile mmos none of us have necessarily heard nothing of (i know nothing about Dofus either - first time i saw the name was on the chart link Wigg posted) that might and likely will do quite well within their own scale and audience.

[Hovis]

Point in case is that asking to be shown an mmo game released "these days" that shows consistent growth in player numbers over time is like asking someone what time they'll be taking a dump next june 13th.

Of course there'll be spikes in subscription numbers especially now in the post-WoW-phenomenon mmo scene where a big portion of the release spike consist of specifically WoW players who are looking for something different or THINK they're looking for something different (while they actually want to keep playing but try something to nitpick every little detail to confirm to themselves how much better this and that is done in WoW) and failing to find something to please them fall back to WoW.

WAR might be something to buck the trend and keep growing steadily over time. AoC at this time seems like a spectacular failure but it's not impossible for it to recover. LOTRO's in general rather underappreciated as i understand but i've heard the new expansion's a damn good one. Then there's a bunch of low-profile mmos none of us have necessarily heard nothing of (i know nothing about Dofus either - first time i saw the name was on the chart link Wigg posted) that might and likely will do quite well within their own scale and audience.

Regarding niche games that are starting out right now, I guess none of us is cool enough to know any, or at least pic the ones that are on the up in a big way. That's why they are obscure. There's a few kicking around though. The tendency with this type of game these days though is to go free to play and have micro-transactions or whatever they call them to make the money.

I'm not sure I see a way to recover very much for AoC, it's just so relentlessly poor. I mean just before it launched it was set to be huge, it's never going to get back to that, or close to it. If it's lucky then it might make it's money back and survive, but I think it'll be the new Vanguard if it does. Low pop, niche game, bleh.

The thing that I think LOTRO sort of did quite well is that it's gone right for the carebear jugular. No serious PvP, no baddies, no grief. It plays really nicely too and looks pretty great from a technical standing. I quit playing it for the three main reasons though, firstly it was slow and Granado Espada had just come out that was blisteringly fast, so I went to that instead. LOTRO combat was pure engage enemy mob, put kettle on, style. Secondly was the graphics, great technically, but I just didn't like the way it looked. All the characters looked like action figures for eight year olds and the character creation sucked bumhole. Third of course no guild and little inclination to get one because of the lack of PvP. The other niggle I had with it, though not in itself a reason to quit as it happens all the time, was mobflation. I hate it. I hate playing a game where I am killing bears at level one and I am killing the same bears at level 50 but with a different name and they scaled the model up a bit. Gives me flashbacks to EQ2 with the mysterious level 50 antelopes. If I was a level fifty antelope I wouldn't be grazing in some far off kingdom, I'd have gone back to the start area and ruled the other antelopes with an iron hoof.

I have to say I think the recurring theme of the MMOs that are good and the MMOs that suck debate seems to be that the MMOs that have the least ambition seem to be the best. Take something simple, do it well, add the rest later seems to be the best approach.

[Tapja]

Ladies and Gentelmen, this thread about Darkfall has been brought to you by: Renegade Legion.

[Khammar]

Yea, sure. I'll listen to people that don't start with telling me that if I don't listen to him I will never be good at my job, thanks anyway though. I don't doubt that you know what you are talking about, but you sure got a seriously shitty way of giving out advice.

What's worse? Harsh forum posts, or seeing a shot at a job go up in smoke because you operated from false assumptions?

I'd rather give it to you point blank and have you hate me than see you walk into a development company and tell the wrong person the wrong thing.

Personal experience talking: it gets real ugly real fast when you do that.

You can take what I've said or leave it, but the further you get away from thinking that development is an idealistic profession the better IMO. It's cutthroat, draining, and incredibly difficult. It can damage your health, your home life, and your sanity. It is also full of disappointment when projects fail, run over time/budget, or otherwise blow up in your face.

I want you to succeed. If you don't like the way I give advice, I can't help you out. I'd just rather shoot straight than sugarcoat it. Same goes for Sean. He's just telling you flat out that your statements about how games are made are inaccurate. If you don't have money as a startup, you'll almost always (oh how sad and true) fold. If you do have money, you'll maybe make it to the point where you get a shot or two at impressing some people who have even more money. If you do, they'll start making demands, and cut your money off immediately if you fail to meet them.

Truth be told things are getting much, much worse. There are more people out of a job now (experienced people with good resumes) in the industry than there are likely to be jobs for in the near future. Things were bad before, but in the last two months the industry has been spiraling, and it's not getting any better. There are NO government bailouts for game publishers or developers.

In other words, the guys with the money are even less likely to let anyone have freedom right now than they have been in the past. Giving people 10 million dollars (and that's a start, it's far, far more for an MMO) and saying "have fun, make a great game" is akin to saying "lock me up in the looney bin" . . .

[Khammar]

Ladies and Gentelmen, this thread about Darkfall has been brought to you by: Renegade Legion.

I once fell because it was too dark to see.

[Khammar]

Look at it this way:

Start with 800,000 subs for three months and drop to 400,000 subs after that while selling 1.5 million boxes . . . then grow to 550,000 over a year before dropping 100,000 subs a year and selling 20% of your subs in boxes and 100% of your subs in expansions for 5 years.

OR

Start with 30,000 and grow to 250,000 over 5 years

By your estimation A is fail and B is win.

By mine A makes money hand over fist while B struggles and only turns a moderate profit.

Guess it's all in how you view "failure" and "niche" . . .

[Gunhead]

For my part i view them from "how enjoyable the game is and what's the expected lifespan" -point of view. As a gamer i don't give a flying toss about how much money some get-rich-quick mmo scheme (which is the taste AoC left in my mouth in the end) rakes in as i'm not at the receiving end in any case.

[Hovis]

Look at it this way:

Start with 800,000 subs for three months and drop to 400,000 subs after that while selling 1.5 million boxes . . . then grow to 550,000 over a year before dropping 100,000 subs a year and selling 20% of your subs in boxes and 100% of your subs in expansions for 5 years.

OR

Start with 30,000 and grow to 250,000 over 5 years

By your estimation A is fail and B is win.

By mine A makes money hand over fist while B struggles and only turns a moderate profit.

Guess it's all in how you view "failure" and "niche" . . .

The elephant in the room with your model though is marketing. You want to make a big hit like that you need to pay a fuckload of cash. You also need to start your business big with an eye to scaling down, which is a very odd way to go about doing anything. It's also more of a gamble. If you win big you make WoW or WAR, the only two games to have managed it successfully, if you screw the pooch you end up with AoC, Vanguard, EQ2, Hellgate and a good number of others. And the companies that have got the big games wrong have fallen hard.

If you build from small to big you will tend to have a more forgiving audience, but this also demands a certain type of game. You can't go for the big, high production values, all action MMORPG if you're only looking to sell around 100k boxes.

[Gunhead]

Ladies and Gentelmen, this thread about Darkfall has been brought to you by: Renegade Legion.

Imagine if our threads didn't have topics... Now at least one can always check from the top of the page what was it we were supposed to be going on about. :p

[Khammar]

To be honest I want games that people want to play. AoC was one of the worst titles I've played simply because everyone I enjoyed playing with slowly (not so slowly in some cases) quit.

That said, example A above is the best example of a game people want to play. Maybe only half the people who tried it initially stuck with it . . . but in the end it still had more people playing consistently.

More people means more of a chance the people I enjoy spending time with will stick around.

I'm a social guy . . . who wouldda thunk it?

[Hovis]

For my part i view them from "how enjoyable the game is and what's the expected lifespan" -point of view. As a gamer i don't give a flying toss about how much money some get-rich-quick mmo scheme (which is the taste AoC left in my mouth in the end) rakes in as i'm not at the receiving end in any case.

Yeah AoC really pissed me off and left me angry. There is no way the people in that office could not have known that the product they were making was a complete load of shit. They knew it was shit, so they activated the hypedrive, front-loaded the content so the reviewers would be happy, and scammed everybody. It was fundamentally a fucking con.

[Khammar]

if you screw the pooch you end up with . . . EQ2

I'd be willing to bet SOE has made plenty of money off EQ2. It's got more subs than EQ, it's on expansion number 5, and it has provided them with a continuation of what was once regarded as the premier MMO IP . . .

The *only* thing that stopped EQ2 from hitting far more subs is the fact that WoW came out at almost the same time. WoW was insanely heavily marketed. EQ2 was not. (SOE doesn't like to push very hard with their games for whatever reason . . . it's just a business model they've adopted.)

I would die happy if I could ever work on a title that did what EQ2 has done.

[Hovis]

To be honest I want games that people want to play. AoC was one of the worst titles I've played simply because everyone I enjoyed playing with slowly (not so slowly in some cases) quit.

That said, example A above is the best example of a game people want to play. Maybe only half the people who tried it initially stuck with it . . . but in the end it still had more people playing consistently.

More people means more of a chance the people I enjoy spending time with will stick around.

I'm a social guy . . . who wouldda thunk it?

Yeah it sucks to lose people in a game. I think one of the things that allows RL to such a discerning society with games is that we all know we don't lose the community even if we ditch the game, so we can afford to dump games that we don't like without losing anything. When it became clear Age of Conan was a turkey folks could just ditch it and move on as a collective to the next game. There are hundreds of thousands of players out there, especially in WoW, for whom if they lose their guild in that one game that's it, and they lose all the friends from that guild, so they stick around just to be with their mates.

[Flufball]

Doesn't Leo work for one of these evil publishers? I'm sure that despite being one of the evil money men producer types he's had a fair amount of direct involvement on the development of quite a few games... :p

I do love Legion Threads, there's a remarkable habit of them to several conversations running paralell to the original one, escalating in the scale of fights going on. :D

I do hope there will be a Legion contingent in this game, I want to see us (quite literally) take over the world.

[Khammar]

. . . so they stick around just to be with their mates.

There is something to be said for a bit of stability within a game.

I'm not even sure WAR is going to last at this point, and I think that maybe calling us "discerning" when our only regular presence for a truly long period of time has been in WoW (which is, quite arguably, filled with tripe to a point) is maybe a bit of a stretch.

I think you actually have a WoW core and the rest of us, who seem to play (almost invariably) most of what comes out. Which makes it a bit easier as you see each other off and on . . . but still, it makes it nearly impossible to feel at home in any game, because it's like you're waiting for the other shoe to drop and the game to fold.

We are perhaps in essence part of what is wrong with MMOs. We are the ones who are not playing by the rules. We don't subscribe and play for the extensive periods of time that we are "supposed to" according to the business plan . . .

[Khammar]

I do hope there will be a Legion contingent in this game, I want to see us (quite literally) take over the world.

See Fluf here, another WAR member we've not seen in weeks . . . :)

[Hovis]

I'd be willing to bet SOE has made plenty of money off EQ2. It's got more subs than EQ, it's on expansion number 5, and it has provided them with a continuation of what was once regarded as the premier MMO IP . . .

The *only* thing that stopped EQ2 from hitting far more subs is the fact that WoW came out at almost the same time. WoW was insanely heavily marketed. EQ2 was not. (SOE doesn't like to push very hard with their games for whatever reason . . . it's just a business model they've adopted.)

I would die happy if I could ever work on a title that did what EQ2 has done.

I'm sure EQ2 made money but bottom line is it came out at the same time as WoW and could have been huge, or at least bigger. Marketing was a part of it, but fundamentally WoW was the 'better' game as far as the market was concerned. I never liked WoW, much preferred EQ2, but factors like the required system spec always held EQ2 back. That and they really ballsed up with the IP. Making it EQ2 would have put off completely new players, but then they completely alienated the old EQ players by setting the game hundreds of years later with the old world destroyed.

Little mistakes with so much at stake.

[Hovis]

Doesn't Leo work for one of these evil publishers? I'm sure that despite being one of the evil money men producer types he's had a fair amount of direct involvement on the development of quite a few games... :p

I do love Legion Threads, there's a remarkable habit of them to several conversations running paralell to the original one, escalating in the scale of fights going on. :D

I do hope there will be a Legion contingent in this game, I want to see us (quite literally) take over the world.

Already done that three times on the bounce in Pirates of the Burning Sea. Daresay the WAR contingent will be knocking on the gate of the Chaos city pretty soon too.

[Taylor]

But that Darkfall, eh? Might be a bril game unless it sucks!

Stop derailing the thread you worthless monkey.

I am liking the whole "Give me an example. No not that one. Not that one either - NOR that one before you even say it!" argument though.

Only thing I know for sure is that if Planetside 2 was already out (although by another name), you guys wouldve pissed all over it and wouldn't be playing it.

Games aren't there to be played any more. Everyone has used up their capacity for acceptance on some old shit, ages ago and that's all they can love now. Anything else has a funny new smell and none of the quirks you're used to.

Except for Left 4 Dead, because that tastes like delicious brains.

[Flufball]

Already done that three times on the bounce in Pirates of the Burning Sea. Daresay the WAR contingent will be knocking on the gate of the Chaos city pretty soon too.

I don't mean just being the best on the server and killing everyone. We do that anyway. I mean quite literally building an empire, which Darkfall seems to promise. That said, what they say it will do and what will actually show up are two different things...

[Daymare]

Imagine if our threads didn't have topics... Now at least one can always check from the top of the page what was it we were supposed to be going on about. :p

Ahahahaha

[WiGgLr]

Show me a game released these days that has bucked the trend.

At the moment, since the new Avcom system came in especially, PotBS is a far better game than it was and the player numbers are gradually going up which reflects this.

I love it when a plan comes together

[Ludicrouse]

I love it when a plan comes together

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b81/sevenweblog/George_Peppard7.jpg

[Hovis]

I love it when a plan comes together

Still not up to release levels though. Not by a hell of a long way.

[Tapja]

Still not up to release levels though. Not by a hell of a long way.

I don't think we will ever again see a MMO that will have release level people 3-6 months or possibly even a few years after.

[Daymare]

I shall challenge you on this! ever is a very long time!

[Gunhead]

I mean quite literally building an empire, which Darkfall seems to promise.

I was kinda planning on exploring the freedom and full-loot PvP by becoming a highwayman, clobbering people down on the road and stealing their pants and nothing but pants.

[Khammar]

We can't build an empire without actually staying committed to a game.

My advice? Ditch the R-L tag if you play in Darkfall.

[Hovis]

Or recruit from outside the established mob as soon as possible. The reason that PotBS is still around as a game RL plays is because only a handful of players in that group are actually from the core of Renegade Legion. We did precisely what Netster was complaining about not being able to do in WAR and recruited from dying societies, even taking players from the opposition at times.

Renegade Legion's core player mob is a good source of decent players to be the foundation of a guild and it does give you a big leg up, and valuable infrastructure like the forum and Teamspeak, but ultimately if you want to last through that first year you need to be able to bring in outside players in numbers.

I would suggest for Darkfall, and Jumpgate too when that starts up, anybody serious about actually forming an RL contingent there needs to be recruiting hard right off the bat, anybody who gives off even a slight vibe of intelligence or skill should be snapped up.

[Daymare]

We can't build an empire without actually staying committed to a game.

My advice? Ditch the R-L tag if you play in Darkfall.

This is actually a valid point to be honest. Unless you are planning on starting a whole new game under the RL banner, as a guild leader, and planning to go all the way, then you might be better off finding somone who does. I do not mean any offense to anyone when I say this, but RL guilds tend to rest on their laurels and just genereally be too inactive on recruiting new players to the ranks. I hope to fix that in Jumpgate, after doing a medicore job as GM in wow, but will have to see :) (oh yes I did manage to sneak a jumpgate comercial into this post as well)

[Gunhead]

My trousermongering enterprise won't require henchmen.

[Khammar]

WAR was populated almost to a man by people attached to guilds. I think it was the teamplay aspect that attracted pretty much every established guild from every other game under the sun to start up (and die out of) the game.

It is one of the worst examples I've ever seen of being able to recruit people, that's for sure. :)

But I'm not really kidding. Hovis' theory that you need TS/forums is correct. They cost almost nothing to run however, so if you can pay for an MMO you can pay for forums/TS. :P

If in fact societies like R-L are a problem (and the more I think about it the more I believe it may indeed be the case) why not use Darkfall as the chance to form a guild for . . . DARKFALL. :)

[Khammar]

My trousermongering enterprise won't require henchmen.

I can iron . . .

[Gunhead]

I can iron . . .

Okay but only if you do washing and starch too and Pol watches the shop while i'm off harvesting new wares.

[Ludicrouse]

why not use Darkfall as the chance to form a guild for . . . DARKFALL. :)

Because its Vaporware, and guaranteed to be a total pile of shit if it ever does see the light of day. ;)

[Hovis]

Because its Vaporware, and guaranteed to be a total pile of shit if it ever does see the light of day. ;)

Ludi sort of hit the nail on the head, albeit in a sort of roundabout way, not with his appraisal of the game, but he pretty much sums up how a lot of people think about it. Anybody who wants to make a guild for Darkfall is going to pretty much have to build from outside the Legion, because the actual numbers of players from RL that seem to be interested in it are low.

[Ironman]

My trousermongering enterprise won't require henchmen.
HA HA YOU FAIL!!! Look down and you'll see that I've already stolen your pants. MUAHAHAHA

[Khammar]

The pants are a LIE.

[Grillkohle]

HA HA YOU FAIL!!! Look down and you'll see that I've already stolen your pants. MUAHAHAHA
And henceforth Gnuhead shall be known as Captain Underpants.
http://www.scholastic.co.uk/zone/images/book%20zone/fiction8-12/captain-underpants_logo.jpg

[Flufball]

I never said it had to be an achiveable dream. The point is more about getting to the stage where MMO's allow you to progress in a persistant world like that rather than having LORD BADMAN DRAGON being killed by players only to mystically reappear to be killed again. :p

[Khammar]

Don't get me wrong, I loved me some UO and some AC and pretty much anything that was big and wide open made me happy happy joy joy . . .

But if it costs too much to get a taste of Darkfall I won't be able to justify it.

I will take a look if it is indeed not too much of an outlay.

[Volw]

TBH, having a game where there are guilds instead of predefined sides, most of the time ruins the experience for a lot of people.

Look at AoC. Getting past 60 without getting ganked in every possible way was impossible as the largest guilds (or ruskies) simply ruled the server.

Same goes with BoB in EVE, to some extent. EVE is huge and you can aways move someplace else.

People like joining the winning side and unless there is a system in place, it will simply be a land of grief. I don't think, it's going to attract many players.

[Gunhead]

HA HA YOU FAIL!!! Look down and you'll see that I've already stolen your pants. MUAHAHAHA
Why do you think i'm planning to resort to criminal activity to veil myself? :(
And henceforth Gnuhead shall be known as Captain Underpants.
They've got pictures of Popeye eating spinach on them atm as i'm sure you're interested to know.

[Taylor]

The thing I am looking forward to the most is not fucking lvling the second I log in. Oh and looting...And killing.

One char per server is interesting too. I was kinda looking forward to having a proper mule but that's out the window now. Gun, I'm gonna need you to be my mule, k?

[Khammar]

You must pay him in pants.

[Gunhead]

With big pockets, obviously.

[Gunhead]

Rumour going around that they'll launch an "open beta" this week - well, more of a server stress test than any coherent beta at this stage i'd wager as the launch is scheduled for 22nd. Nothing on the official site yet though.

[Khammar]

http://forums.darkfallonline.com/showthread.php?t=106082

Pushed back to the 25th of next month. Pre-orders starting mid-month next month.

I find it interesting that they're saying they don't want a lot of people to start with.

I suspect they want to slow grow the game but are gonna have a hard time doing it with so many people expecting the game to be the new Messiah. :)

[PariaH]

so they are telling me not to buy it? i think i'll take that advice :D

[Hovis]

I think the whole thing smells like Pirates of the Burning Sea, an original game, a small developer, an insanely long development cycle and delays right up until it goes out the door.

With that in mind I would say that it is highly likely that a lot of the game isn't finished. I would also bet that it's going to be buggy as all hell because that seems to be par for the course on games a long time in development, especially MMOs. Code gets layered on code, differently elements of the game overlap in unforeseen ways creating problems, it's the same old story.

No worries though, I'll just wait til you narbs have scouted the terrain. :D

[Urien]

Darkfall is now scheduled to drop to euro release on Feb 22nd, though a client download will be available on Jan 22nd.
Their reason for this client start-up is over interest and not enough bedding down time with their server providers and they were working really hard at Xmas, but no one else was.
There is an interview in ten ton hammer www.tentonhammer.com/node/61522
I'm very interested in the idea, but it all sounds hectic and with no promotion to be seen in major magazines and concerns still about whether the graphics have made the leap after the long development cycle, I just don't know.
Vaporware or the new PvP Messiah.

Urien


Love is the Law, Love under Will.

[Gunhead]

Very good read about Darkfall at Massively: http://www.massively.com/2009/01/21/anti-aliased-the-darkfall-prophecies/

Personally i really hope Brennan's closing statements in part 2 are spot on.

[Urien]

I've signed up for server crash beta, but as no RL, priority will go to fanboy clans.
This from a beta tester I find interesting though.

Imagine you're playing a game.

Imagine you're exploring the game world and enter a settlement, more like a stronghold. And in the keep within the walls of this place, you meet a young man whom tells you his story. He is a man of noble blood. The last son of a king whom was killed and his kingdom taken over by one of his lieutenants.

The young man wishes to take back his Father's lands, several settlements and a keep in the mountains not too far from there. But he needs an army to help him.

Imagine you and a few of your fellow adventurers accept him into your group and the 5 of you make off to the young man's stolen lands. Your group goes from settlement to settlement recruiting loyalists to his Father until your force numbers more than 30. Imagine you recruit several more players to your cause over the few hours you have been on this mission.

Imagine that your group meets up with a bandit force, formerly a nuisance to the Father, but now are willing to help the young prince...for a price. Thus growing your force to more than 40...

Imagine you enter a village neighboring the kingdom and strike a deal with the leader of that village to pledge troops to your campaign in exchange for a trade deal when the prince takes back the lands....

Imagine laying siege to a keep with a force of around 60 NPCs and players, using commissioned warhulks to bust down walls so your force could swarm the enemy forces.

Imagine fighting your way up large stair cases. Imagine arrows flying in every direction. Chaos, adrenaline and mayhem flowing out of your pours. Imagine breaking down the doors to the main hall in the castle with the 8 surviving members of your party and facing off against a dozen NPCs and finally striking down the sheriff of the keep, the usurper of the throne. Imagine earning a title for that kingdom and being granted special passage to that keep for as long as the prince is governing it.

Imagine walking around the battlefield afterward. Picking equipment off tombstones and filling up on coins left on bodies.

Imagine this whole ordeal taking 5 hours. Imagine it being so cool, that the party of player heroes could not stop talking about it for an hour after finishing. Imagine they stay at the keep wondering around. Looking for more NPCs that may have epic quests to do. Imagine this is a one shot deal and the prince does not reset. The story does not start over. It just...goes on. Imagine that the players that took place in this story were the only ones that got to do it. Imagine there are many other quests that are the same. Imagine the world is not static. Imagine a dynamic world where a single quest can change the balance of power in a region.

If you can't imagine it.....experience it.

Now would have to be a ping pong effect, as whoever gets to quest are the only ones to experience it seems too daft a concept.
But like the idea.

Urien


Love is the Law, Love under Will.

[Daymare]

Well that's the whole point of a sandbox world. The ultimate mmo (atleast in my mind) is where every quest is generated by occurences that have taken place already in the game world, shaping it in ways that no one could have predicted. I doubt darkfall is it, but if it's even remotely touching a true living world, I'll be interested :)

[Khammar]

There's a load of stuff in Darkfall that looks good, particularly to those of us with experience in Sandbox worlds, and oldschool games.

I am curious, to say the least.

[Hovis]

GM events in games, even entirely hands off ones as described in the post above, are cool. They give you a point of reference, for instance you can talk about the Gunuku hold during the monolith event in Planetside and guys know what you mean.

But that said I prefer player driven stuff. Ultima Online for example has no quests, or at least it never used to. EVE Online has missions for cash, but they are not part and parcel of character levelling and equipment acquisition as they are in other games. WAR, when it gets to the point of being good, abandons quests too. The bit of the game that sucks is 'go here, kill that, come back for reward' the good bit is, 'See those guys, kill them'.

We'll see where it goes with Darkfall, but having stuff like this as being NPC quest driven, have to say I don't much care for it. It makes a great pitch, but in practice this kind of event is usually just a mad player zerg with people falling over each other to get epic lootz.

[Ardesco de la Furia]

Urien a game already exists that is eriely similar to what you described.

Mount and Blade (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTUVfmE2ViQ)

Graphics are abit dated but the sword and weapon play is the best you will ever find for a medieval style game yet. You go around recruiting troops on a large mapstyle overview. Moving from village to village, castle to castle. Whenever you enter a battle instance you are commader of your troops but a unit on the field (FPS style) just like them. You can become a vassal lord to a king and help him conquer a kingdom becoming Grand Marshall eventually. You can control your own village given to you by a king or take your own in a rebellion. This is a general overview of the game and my experience with it. Nothing like flanking an army of 100 men with a cavalry charge and hacking them apart with a bigass scythe along the way. :D

This game is free as a demo up to lvl 6. But a full version can be purchased. Did i mention a man and his wife created this game by themselves? ;)

Ok carry on with Darkfall discussion. :)

[Flufball]

The only problem I ever had with Mount and Blade is that once you got a lance the game was virtually over. Just keep riding about on a horse spearing people with no isse.

[Daymare]

has no multiplayer. Amazing game though, and fluff, try setting difficulty to 2x damage from weapons for more realstic gameplay. Can promise you you wont just be riding around spearing people solo with your lance :)

[Ardesco de la Furia]

has no multiplayer. Amazing game though, and fluff, try setting difficulty to 2x damage from weapons for more realstic gameplay. Can promise you you wont just be riding around spearing people solo with your lance :)
I never used a lance and believed them to always be shit. <3 Sword of War/Nordic sword double shield setup.

[Flufball]

Everything is up. It's still easy. All you do is have a squad of sacrafices to keep their attention, ride through them turn around, ride back and repeat. The only thing that ever does me in is usually numbers, once all my goon squad is killed and I'm on my own against a further two hundred men.

I have little trust for Darkfall simply because I have such high hopes for the game. It sounds far too much like what I've wanted to be true.

[Daymare]

just to add a little to mount and blade. I have downloaded the battle resizer mod, giving me battles of more than 400 men, I usually play on foot now, because it's much more of a challenge, as said, great game, and like any sandbox game it's exactly what you want to make it.

[SneakRocker]

saw Mount and blade 7euro 50 on steam this weekend by the way

[Hovis]

saw Mount and blade 7euro 50 on steam this weekend by the way

Was £25 when I last looked. For £8 I'll have a sniff.

Edited to add, £6.25, get in.

[Flufball]

I'm suprised we've got this far without Ludi barging in and calling everyone shite for mentioning the game infront of him. :p

[Ludicrouse]

I'm suprised we've got this far without Ludi barging in and calling everyone shite for mentioning the game infront of him. :p

Your talking about Mount&Blade, not Darkfall. Mount&Blade is good, altho its level based and involves "Grinding". Hovis need not apply.

[Khammar]

Since they have a 14 day trial (and have dropped the base price if you do decide to buy) I figured I'd give it a spin. Just headed to bed now after having played about a bit.

Reminds me of UO in a way, but first person instead of isometric. Kinda fugly, but not as fugly as it could be I suppose.

Noob protection is on for new accounts, so I have no idea how nasty it is to be unprotected. I am betting "fairly" . . .

[OniKiy]

Noob protection is on for new accounts, so I have no idea how nasty it is to be unprotected. I am betting "fairly" . . .

Put it this way, keep any thing spare you can use in the bank. Otherwise learn to fight naked a lot. I got into fights at the starter zones with guys who were obviously not low level.

Not a fun prospect, but I still went in every time. Cause simply 'fuk em' I aint afraid. :P