Raid instance loot rules - discussion, suggestions

[Gaetano]

First of all a disclaimer: this post and any of the criticism contained within is targeted at no person in any way, but rather than the system. Also I don't wish to imply anything along the lines of "if you are not a part of the solution, you're a part of the problem".

But I do still think we have a problem.

As probably all the people who have partaken in our instance raid runs already know, our loot rules are fairly "relaxed". BoE can be rolled by anyone (but given away if a person in group needs it as is proper), BoP (mostly rare) are passed and randomed between who have the best claim (need, disenchant and lastly money) and lastly set items are rolled between the people in the appropriate class who need it (which is what I see as most problematic). What it can and frequently does result in is that someone who's having a lucky night walks away with all the loot and the others get a pat on the back.

For some reason the prevalent notion seems to be that rolling is the best and/or most fair way of distributing loot, the underlying premise apparently being that "sooner or later, everyone has their lucky night". This is statistically true, but really anyone who thinks statistics and actuality go hand in hand needs a reality check. For those not familiar with probability and statistics, there's this little thing called variation which determines how long it takes the distribution of a random variable to "even out". Needless to point out, given all the random factors (number of drops, drop rates, number of people rolling) the variation in this case goes rather high. The point being, you have to run those instances a lot of times before the distribution starts to resemble anything close to even or fair. A lot of times it is painfully obvious that a more fair outcome could have been possible.

I for one tend to see rolling as a necessarily evil. But fact of the matter is that as often as not, it's not really even necessary. Some guilds have incorporated elaborate schemes of determining who are eligible for the loot based on the number of runs each person has made or other such criteria but I'm not actually suggesting we do the same, simply because it's not necessary in this scope at least.

What I am suggesting is a very simple rule that would primarily be applied to set item drops. That is one set item per person per run. Meaning: if there are multiple drops of the same set in a given run and you have multiple people needing those drops, the person who wins the roll for the first item he needs is out of the rolls on the next items, until others have also gotten an item.

Short example and comparison for clarification follows:

We have person A, B and C from the same class. Two instance runs are made, and three items drop for the class in question. Player A is in on the both runs, player B is in on the first only and player C in for the second only.

Roll-without-limitations rule, (possible) outcome:
Player B is having a lucky night. In the first run, he by some grace of Lady Luck rolls 99 for each of his set items and takes off with 3 brand new, shiny armor pieces. Player C also brought along his lucky dice and is thus rewarded all three items for his class from the second run. Player A, on the other hand, while arguably doing twice as much as players B or C, gets a pat on the back and consolation such as "you'll get some next time, mate" (or the time after that, or the time after that etc.).
Final score is player A: 0, player B: 3 and player C: 3.

Roll-with-limitation rule, outcome:
Luck doesn't abandon player B on the first run here either, but after winning the first set drop he is disqualified from rolling on the second drop, which goes automatically to player A. A good roll on the third item still lands player B his second item for the night. Same thing happens to player C who didn't forget his lucky dice in the other pants this time either. He also wins two items while not being eligible for one roll. And what's the final score? Let's have a look:
Player A: 2 items, player B: 2 items and player C: 2 items.

Of course we haven't still completely managed to eradicate the variation and indeed should player A had had his lucky streak going on, he would've received 3 items on the expense of player B's on item so the final score would've been A: 3, B: 1, C:2 (note that player C still gets 2 items because on the second run player A only lacks one of the items).

Well, if anyone made it this far through the whole post, it's now congratulation time since this is where I finally end the rant. And no, I'm not player A if anyone wonders. Recent events may have had something do with the inspiration to write this post, however.

Questions, comments, suggestions, criticism, all welcome and wanted!

[Dojun]

I personally dont think that 1 set drop per person is a good way. Its all about luck, you have the same chance as everyone else(unless someone have roll hack if it exists). And from my experince the group will vary much from run to run. Sometimes a class isnt in sometimes three people from that class is in. Sometimes when there are 3-4 palas in the raid exept me i can ask if it is OK tho leave and try finding abother raid where not so many from my class are. Hm guess i have come a little of topic now but whatever, And as i said at the beginning you have the same chance as everyone else to get the item with rolling.

And different parts on the set are different hard to get. For example the random drops are pretty common drops while the chest and some other pices is really hard to get. If player A rolls and win on the bracers(radndom) and then the Chest drops from Drakkisath and he arnt allowed to roll would be bad as the chest prolly needs another 5-7 runs(if not lucky).

So to get to the point I say that everyone of that class should be allowed to roll on it if they need

[Nikodemus]

Personally, I quite like the current system. Of course that's easy for me to say as a priest :/

The reason being simplicity. It's simple, and therefore it's fast and there's not much to argue about. The more rolling rules you implement, the more time you'll waste standing around argueing over wether person X was entitled to roll or not.

And ... well, I see some problems with what you're suggesting.
- people passing on "lesser" set items because they don't want to lose their chance at rolling on the rare one from the end boss.

- person A wins the roll on the first item that drops. A new item from the set drops, but B already has it, so it also goes to A. So, now what? is A excluded from the next two that drop? - well, 4 items from the same set don't drop on the same trip, so is he exluded from rolling on the next run? if so, I don't think he'll be joining the next run.
Might give some conflicts.

- multiple runs. One item drops on the first run, A wins the roll. One item drops on the second run, A wins the roll. One item drops on the third run, A wins the roll ... leaving B with nothing but that lovely pad on the back. Does that mean the rule should "strech" over multiple runs? how would that work if more people of the class had joined in along the way? starts to get complicated - leading to confusion and possibly problems.

- scenario: someone wins a set-item halfway through a run. 10 mins later, he really has to go. Did that someone really have to go, or did that someone just not want to finish a run he couldn't benefit anymore from? If people suspect the latter, that's just more bad blood :/

- non-guildies. Sometimes we just don't have enough people, sometimes someone's mate joins etc - i.e., we will be doing mixed runs. Again; the more complex the loot rules, the more times we'll see confusion and/or arguements about it. I don't want to see someone from guild X going off to tell his guild that we're a bunch of greedy bastards because we told him not to roll on his chestplate from Drakkissath.

I do see where you're coming from; I've been on a run where Tarlin beat me on 5 rolls in a row - and yeah, that was annoying. I just don't see a better solution then letting the dice decide the outcome. That way we can be mad at our own set of dice for rolling low; instead of being mad at the other player for rolling.

[Gaetano]

I personally dont think that 1 set drop per person is a good way. Its all about luck, you have the same chance as everyone else(unless someone have roll hack if it exists). And from my experince the group will vary much from run to run. Sometimes a class isnt in sometimes three people from that class is in. Sometimes when there are 3-4 palas in the raid exept me i can ask if it is OK tho leave and try finding abother raid where not so many from my class are. Hm guess i have come a little of topic now but whatever, And as i said at the beginning you have the same chance as everyone else to get the item with rolling.

I see I'm not getting 100% through here. My point was, equal chance doesn't mean equal outcome. Also variance in groups is not a key factor, limitations still ensure a more fair loot distribution even in single groups.


And different parts on the set are different hard to get. For example the random drops are pretty common drops while the chest and some other pices is really hard to get. If player A rolls and win on the bracers(radndom) and then the Chest drops from Drakkisath and he arnt allowed to roll would be bad as the chest prolly needs another 5-7 runs(if not lucky).


Well let's think this through. Like you said, the random drop set items are relatively easy to get (I got bracers from my first run into Strat, belt also from first run into LBRS). So by the time Drakkisath drops the chest armor for your class, it's more than likely that you already have the random drop items from previous runs.

If, on the other hand, in the very first time you're in UBRS you get a random drop and Drakkisath drops the chest for your class, do you think it's completely fair that you get both items on your first run, where as there might be someone else in the group who has done 20 runs into UBRS just for the chest and now sees it drop for the first time (or maybe has lost it in roll a couple times already)?

[Gaetano]

And ... well, I see some problems with what you're suggesting.
- people passing on "lesser" set items because they don't want to lose their chance at rolling on the rare one from the end boss.


Frankly, that's their problem. If they are too greedy to settle for "lesser" set item, they can blame themselves, not the rules if they don't get anything.


- person A wins the roll on the first item that drops. A new item from the set drops, but B already has it, so it also goes to A. So, now what? is A excluded from the next two that drop? - well, 4 items from the same set don't drop on the same trip, so is he exluded from rolling on the next run? if so, I don't think he'll be joining the next run.
Might give some conflicts.


No, the rule only applies to "contested" items only so A would be excluded from the possible third drop. If there is no third drop, then yes A could receive 2 items and B 0. This is in no way worse outcome than no-limitations-roll, in this particular case it just isn't better either.


- multiple runs. One item drops on the first run, A wins the roll. One item drops on the second run, A wins the roll. One item drops on the third run, A wins the roll ... leaving B with nothing but that lovely pad on the back. Does that mean the rule should "strech" over multiple runs? how would that work if more people of the class had joined in along the way? starts to get complicated - leading to confusion and possibly problems.


What you are describing is not really a problem with the rule I proposed, which primarily deals with single runs with multiple set drops in that single run. I concede it's not a silver bullet that deals with every possible scenario, but it's (a lot) better than nothing.


- scenario: someone wins a set-item halfway through a run. 10 mins later, he really has to go. Did that someone really have to go, or did that someone just not want to finish a run he couldn't benefit anymore from? If people suspect the latter, that's just more bad blood :/


Lies tend to have short tracks and people who would stoop to that will get caught eventually and won't be grouped anymore, same as ninja looters etc. Plus at least where guildies are concerned, I'd like to think them as being dependaple and honest enough.


- non-guildies. Sometimes we just don't have enough people, sometimes someone's mate joins etc - i.e., we will be doing mixed runs. Again; the more complex the loot rules, the more times we'll see confusion and/or arguements about it. I don't want to see someone from guild X going off to tell his guild that we're a bunch of greedy bastards because we told him not to roll on his chestplate from Drakkissath.


Well at this point I'd like to relate a short story of how I got my Beaststalker's Belt. I happened to get into a MoM LBRS raid once thanks to a friend. I got the Belt as a random drop and was not allowed to roll for Beaststalker Mantle that Wyrmthalak dropped because they had a guild hunter along as well who needed it and hadn't gotten anything so far. I got the Belt, I also got to tame a Scarshield Worg for rank8 bite and I got the letter from Wyrmthalak which later on landed me Blackhand's Breadth after killing Drakkisath. After getting all that, do you think I felt shafted or whined to my guildies, just because I couldn't roll for the Mantle?

You'll note that they have stricter policy than what I'm proposing since the belt wasn't actually even a "contested" item. Also I'm not saying we should be like, or imitate, MoM; I just think they happen to have a fair rule about looting.


I do see where you're coming from; I've been on a run where Tarlin beat me on 5 rolls in a row - and yeah, that was annoying. I just don't see a better solution then letting the dice decide the outcome. That way we can be mad at our own set of dice for rolling low; instead of being mad at the other player for rolling.

I believe there is a better solution. I also believe I have described one such.

[Fusion]

Well at this point I'd like to relate a short story of how I got my Beaststalker's Belt. I happened to get into a MoM LBRS raid once thanks to a friend. I got the Belt as a random drop and was not allowed to roll for Beaststalker Mantle that Wyrmthalak dropped because they had a guild hunter along as well who needed it and hadn't gotten anything so far. I got the Belt, I also got to tame a Scarshield Worg for rank8 bite and I got the letter from Wyrmthalak which later on landed me Blackhand's Breadth after killing Drakkisath. After getting all that, do you think I felt shafted or whined to my guildies, just because I couldn't roll for the Mantle? If I was doing a pickup run and they said after I had won one item, that I wasn't allowed to roll on a second I would leave straight away. Sorry but if you invite someone along for a raid you are saying to them "we need you", and to then turn around and say "you can't roll on your set item" is just bollocks and it will give us a bad name.

You'll note that they have stricter policy than what I'm proposing since the belt wasn't actually even a "contested" item. Also I'm not saying we should be like, or imitate, MoM; I just think they happen to have a fair rule about looting.

I believe there is a better solution. I also believe I have described one such. I have to disagree, rolling where everyone has an equal chance to get the item is the fairest way to distribute the items, sure sometimes people have lucky nights but they can't roll higher than you everytime :)

[Gaetano]

If I was doing a pickup run and they said after I had won one item, that I wasn't allowed to roll on a second I would leave straight away. Sorry but if you invite someone along for a raid you are saying to them "we need you", and to then turn around and say "you can't roll on your set item" is just bollocks and it will give us a bad name.

In fact the looting rules were cleared before any mob was killed. Secondly they didn't need me, rather the other way around. Even should we need a non-guildie's help and that non-guildie is not willing to help for just one set item (after all, that person also has a better chance of getting at least one item because of the rule), there will be another who will. Also if we really NEED someone, it's probably because we lack a player from that class completely (for example mage for Baron Rivendare) so they'd essentially be free to roll as many set items as they want since the items are not contested.

I have to disagree, rolling where everyone has an equal chance to get the item is the fairest way to distribute the items, sure sometimes people have lucky nights but they can't roll higher than you everytime :)

... Maybe I should just give up. No-one seems to be able to tell me WHY rolling is most fair way of distributing loot, and even after I demonstrate how utterly BAD it can be, people still just keep on saying "rolling is most fair" as if repeating it enough times makes it true.

[Yimahura]

I dont realy agree with the disenchant, money...
If everyone passes everyone should be able to roll...even if it is for money.

[Ludicrouse]

Maybe I should just give up. No-one seems to be able to tell me WHY rolling is most fair way of distributing loot.


Cuz there is NO FAIRER option ingame.

[Gaetano]

Maybe I should just give up. No-one seems to be able to tell me WHY rolling is most fair way of distributing loot.

Cuz there is NO FAIRER option ingame.

I don't see the relevance of the method being ingame or not if it is simple enough.

[Carcass]

Can only say one thing!!!
Let the dices roll,and let them pick the winner!!!
Unless of cause on BoP that you dont need!!!
(Or Mail/Plate if youre a Priest and so on,and so on)

Heard of Guilds where "rare" loot can´t go to a person if its hes first run :eek:
No No it goes to a person whos been there plenty of times :eek:
Cant see the fairness there at All!!!!
Maybe the "little" guy dont have as much time as the "bigger" guy to play WoW....And that issue shouldnt be a advantage or disadvantage IMO

If we in Renegade go and benefit the ones playing 24/7 by getting them first priority too items!! I for sure wont go playing Instances with you guys!
Probably wont anyway! cause i go make a new Alt.char before reaching lvl.60 :D :D

Can only say this STRONGLY let the dices be the ruler ;)
And let your anger go towards the "stupid" dices that dont favour YOU ;)
Youll get it next time ;)

[Banadan]

Look, it's pretty simple: there are no specific loot rules without actually having set down certain "raid point system" with bidding (with earned raid points) on the item(s). Until that, it's all the same - hit the dice and hope you win. Setting any limitations a la "You can't roll now because other person was here during previous run as well" means that one person may just leave and make things trickier. It's not like the mobs which drop the items are contested, it's an INSTANCE, they can be forced to repop within seconds. Not to mention that I have yet to see a run, where more then 1 piece from a set drops, from any set.

Reminds me one person, who asked me to join his Strat run. So I joined, and while inviting some others, he suddenly said like "If the baron drops his 1H sword, then paladins can't roll because you're supposed to use 2H swords. And if the horse drops, then I should get it because I've done so many runs there already!". Gee, tough luck for you then. I simply left that raid right away, as did most. Good luck him having to do it alone. Anyway, the point is - ALL on that specific run WORK to get the item they need, want. ALL have thus the equal chance to win it by rolling on it. Most drops we get with guild groups there, we all roll on everything which is BoE, because usually later it is checked in guildchat whether someone needs/wants something or not. Or even if you lose a roll on some BoE item, but need it, I am quite sure that you can ask the winner of that roll whether he/she needs it and if he/she doesn't, you can get that item. I've given myself away various items I won on such rolls, because someone asked if they could have it, because they would use it.

Anywho, I personally see no problem here, even despite the fact that my dice just plain SUCKS. The only armor set pieces what I have is because either I was only paladin in the raid, or present paladins simply didn't need that piece :D I've been also in some cases on, like, 3 runs in a row and lost ALL the rolls on set pieces which dropped. Do I feel bitter? No. I earnt cash on the run, I got various other items I can sell for cash, I had fun on those runs with guildies and possibly even got some other item, not the armor set but something else, what was an upgrade.

So, nope, no need to change anything. Now when we one day mold into real raiding force and start to have regular raids on high end instances with guild groups and start to use raid point system (for example), then some additional clarification may be needed (although raid points already settle things down), but until that, just join another run and get the item there, if you didn't win on previous. Saying this from personal experience :cool:

[Gaetano]

Look, it's pretty simple: there are no specific loot rules without actually having set down certain "raid point system" with bidding (with earned raid points) on the item(s). Until that, it's all the same - hit the dice and hope you win. Setting any limitations a la "You can't roll now because other person was here during previous run as well" means that one person may just leave and make things trickier. It's not like the mobs which drop the items are contested, it's an INSTANCE, they can be forced to repop within seconds. Not to mention that I have yet to see a run, where more then 1 piece from a set drops, from any set.

You sort of contradict yourself here. The rule I suggested deals exactly with the situation where multiple piece of the same set drop and there are multiple people who want them. You by your own words have not been in such a situation (I have been, a few times already and I haven't been raiding that long) and you don't even give any argument like Nikodemus did about the suggested rule, just say "it's all the same except for raid points".

Please do not equal the suggested rule with ARBITRARY rules like "paladins can't roll on 1-handed weapons; mount should go to leader" etc when they are clearly not comparable (if you still think they are, make some sort of argument for it at least). One-set-item-per-run is fair to EVERYONE, or at least as fair as plain rolling.

The pattern starting to emerge here is that people are just plain greedy, or at least impatient. They want the chance of completing their set in a minimum amount of runs (which requires a fair amount of luck). What they seem to fail to realize is that for every person who gets their set with 10 runs, there's a person who gets their set with 50 runs; ie. for every lucky person there MUST be an unlucky one, there are no winners without losers. So not only does this person who gets the set with 50 runs get it a lot slower, he also has to work 5 times as much to get it. Now please tell me how this is a fair and equal system?

With fairly simple and first and foremost FAIR limitations to a person lucking out, it is possible to limit it so that for example a lucky person completes a set in 20 runs and an unlucky person in 30. I'm not saying one-set-item-per-run will do that alone but it's a start.

So, as anyone should be able to see, it really comes down to people screwing each other for the chance of quick gratification, NOT the game/dice/luck.

Again I don't want to cast blame on anyone but I just want people to think about this for themselves. Also the amount of runs (10,50,20,30) are fairly arbitrary so don't quote me on those; the ratios I think can be fairly realistic though (1:5, 2:3 or so).

And lastly, while pushing a more fair loot system for the rare sets seems a bit hopeless at least so far, what comes to Onyxia's Lair and Molten Core:

There is NO way I'm EVER going to join a raid where it's possible for a single person to walk away with multiple epic armor items and hell let's throw in an epic weapon or two as well, when 40 people have laboured for the better part of a day to bring that loot about.

[Banadan]

Maybe I wasn't clear enough, but I've been on runs like "that", where I seemingly join one raid and another, see the armor pieces what I want (for example), from the set I want, drop and me losing one roll after another, and in the end, having done runs like this for many hours, I come out empty handed (yes, have had runs where I don't win anything at all, and it's not a rare occurance for me).

So what?

It's not like these particular bosses/instances are on set timers, they can be repeated again at any time. Not to mention that the person who already won one piece, obviously doesn't need second such piece. Which in turn means that on some such run, one day, maybe multiple pieces from the armor set I want, for example, drop and I get these "by default", because other person in the group has them already.

I don't feel bitter because I lost a roll on the item, or because I lost the roll twice on different pieces of the same set to the same person. Such 'bitterness' feels much more like 'greediness' to me, or the "one item per run or save you gods should you try to roll more!" Sure, if the person who won the previous set piece decides, upon seeing another set piece drop, that "OK, I won the last one, let him/her get this one then", I appreciate such gesture and I have personally done so (not with set pieces as I haven't yet been in such situation, but with loot in general). That's a nice gesture and is tied to the person.

As far as I am concerned, I personally roll on specific items (BoP armor set pieces, weapons, other items) IF I really will use them and IF these items are an upgrade to me. With BoE items, I sometimes roll like all do, but often also just skip the roll (maybe that's why I am also so low on cash that can't do even half of my epic mount quest, heh). Reason being that in a way I think that maybe those items are indeed an upgrade to someone who rolls, or they need it for their twink, or enchanters need them to disenchant.

Anywho, reason why I am just bantering here and not giving any real 'suggestions' is that maybe I don't simply see an issue here yet. You're the first person who has raised this issue. Maybe you've had some unfortunate runs with some random groups out there,well, tough luck, happens with random groups (my example was exactly about that, about random group loot "rules" or ideas, you can always leave that random group/raid if you don't like their 'rules'). But with guild groups/raids I have not seen such a problem. In the end, all get what they seek/need, mostly, armor set pieces in any case. There are many runs organised into instances and you're welcome to organise one yourself as well, and you'll get what you seek eventually. As for specific loot rules, then when we as a guild one day have a significant amount of lvl 60 people so that we can start to raid periodically some real high end instances - and start to do periodic raids - I guess that then some specific loot rules may be created. That's up for officers to decide. Personally I appreciate your ideas and suggestions, of course, but also personally I do not see the issues what you see.

[Ironman]

Uhm not to sound too much like a copycat I just like to say that I agree 100% with you there Banadan.

The reason I didn't give you (Gaetano) and constructive critics is the fact that I really can't. I like the way the roll are now and as Banadan said we play as a guild so in the end we'll all have those much needed items. I don't care if it will take me like forever to get it. I plan to play this game like forever. :D

[Gromagrim]

Come Onyxia/MC we may devise a new loot strategy, until then, the 'luck of the dice' rule stays. I'm speaking from experience when I say I know how annoying it can be, but it quickly turns around - I had no valour drops from a month of constant raiding, then got 4 inside a week (1 from working hard and 5-manning an instance to summon the mob, 2 because the other warriors had had more luck than me in the past ,and the last I actually - whisper it - won a roll on :D)

Going back inside any of these instances is no tough challenge, if you lose your roll first time, you can start gathering another group rightaway. I don't really care what other guilds consider 'fair', especially those that invite non-guildies and slap them with some draconian rolling rules (one fun story I had was wining an item, then being told I couldn't roll on any other. The next drop I needed, but no-one else did, and 1 guy argued till he was blue in the face that it should be disenchanted, because otherwise 'it wasn't fair' :rolleyes: )

[TheIcon]

The rules im use to:

BoE item drops - all rolls, if someone needs it he'll voice it with a tell in group.

BoP item drops - all pass. Those that needs the item voice it in group, and then those that need it dose /random 100 and the winner pick up the item.
None wants it for other then Greed, all roll /random 100. The winner cant then either loot it, or ask if an enchanter wants to buy it for a symbolic amount.

We sort of used the same rules on the few MC runs we did, how ever new and better rules might behandy there.


note - this is how we did it on shadowmoon :)

[Fusion]

BoP item drops - all pass. Those that needs the item voice it in group, and then those that need it dose /random 100 and the winner pick up the item.
None wants it for other then Greed, all roll /random 100. The winner cant then either loot it, or ask if an enchanter wants to buy it for a symbolic amount. I have come accross some people who use this and it has always caused confusion and aggrivation. The game has an inbuilt mechanism for rolling, why not use it? It's simple: roll for need, pass for greed.

[karkus]

I dont realy agree with the disenchant, money...
If everyone passes everyone should be able to roll...even if it is for money.


its people like that, that made me give up enchanting, some guildies expect free/dirt cheap enchantments, then get pissy coz the enchanter gets a item first? thats a joke right?

sorry for the thread hijack lol

[Fusion]

I dont realy agree with the disenchant, money...
If everyone passes everyone should be able to roll...even if it is for money.its people like that, that made me give up enchanting, some guildies expect free/dirt cheap enchantments, then get pissy coz the enchanter gets a item first? thats a joke right?

sorry for the thread hijack lol If its a guild only group then Enchanters get priority. If it is pickup then enchanting = greed.

[Hincey]

I dont realy agree with the disenchant, money...
If everyone passes everyone should be able to roll...even if it is for money.its people like that, that made me give up enchanting, some guildies expect free/dirt cheap enchantments, then get pissy coz the enchanter gets a item first? thats a joke right?

sorry for the thread hijack lol If its a guild only group then Enchanters get priority. If it is pickup then enchanting = greed.


The only ever enchant that i've had/gonna get is +2 to beast slayin when i was lvl 20 odd off madcat. WTF should i give shit to ppl when IMO its a pointless and stupid profession? we all need money :confused:

[Ramiraz]

first, Im glad your oppinion isnt one that matters all that much.

Enchanting does infact help, adding hitpoints and armor in ones gear does help. The weaponenchantments does help, they add damage, something any melee class will need. take demonslaying enchantments for example, they add a chance to proc a 100+ damage DD and a stun on demons, and they go of alot.

remember that all those very low price and free enchantments that guildies benefit from, comes from those same guildies passing over loot for disenchant, or that they help gather the materials. If I was to get no help in gathering materials from the guild, you could be sure that the guild would have to pay full price for my enchantments.

end of thread hijack :)


I personaly prefer "luck o the dice" since all those times I dont win anything, ill be mad at my dice, and not mad at the other member of the raid that won the item. the other way around simply has the risk of adding alot of bad blod IMO.

but all in all :p ...remember its just a game, and we play to have fun (well, I do atleast :) )

[TheIcon]

BoP item drops - all pass. Those that needs the item voice it in group, and then those that need it dose /random 100 and the winner pick up the item.
None wants it for other then Greed, all roll /random 100. The winner cant then either loot it, or ask if an enchanter wants to buy it for a symbolic amount. I have come accross some people who use this and it has always caused confusion and aggrivation. The game has an inbuilt mechanism for rolling, why not use it? It's simple: roll for need, pass for greed.

I know it seems like a completly stupied thing to do when the roll window is already open. But the reason is that not everyone is that fastest spoon on the block, because some people loot while a combat is ongoing and some people dont feel they have the time to look at the item and compare it to thier current item in the slot. This could be the healer of the group who is having a hard time keeping the gimped none def specced warrior alive ;)
That way it gives eveyone a chance to look at thier items in a none stressed situation, without the clock ticking :)

But again if people are fast a simple voice of NEED or GREED in the chat before hitting the roll key, and then rolling for Need if those are pressent and Greed incase its fx. 5 * Greed.

[Gromagrim]

On Enchanting:

In both pick-up groups and Guild ones, unwanted weapons are greed rolled (they fetch a large amount at vendor) unwanted armour/misc goes to enchanters.

Edit: In response to above post ^^ Don't loot during combat!!

[Rebel]

Hincey, during a raid do you share your farmed goods, i.e leather / ore / flowers...? the items that no1 wants / needs are an enchanters way of gaining their 'ingredients'. and to say you dont recieve enchants is that you probably never ask, or inturn send items to the guild enchanters! its a two-way system!

as grom says weapon unwanted should be greed rolled as they give around 5g vendor, while armour / misc fetches if at all a gold, which is nothing tbh!

[TheIcon]

Which is why we on shadowmoon started to use a system where the one winning the greed roll on a weapon/armour piece that is BoP had the ability to sell it to an enchanter.

Many of the enchanters i'v meet in highlevel instance runs I'v never seen doining any enchantments at all, often they just disenchant the item and sell it at the AH for X gold per shard. And no harm intented enchanterets should get materials also, but on the other hand some people use the gold gained from items to buy materials for thier crafter skill inturn ... or saving up for that kickass level 60 mount ;)

[Rebel]

and what do you with your leather / ore / flowers?

Many of the [Insert TradeSkill] i'v meet in highlevel instance runs I'v never seen doining any [Insert TradeSkill] at all, often they just sell it at the AH for X gold per Material.

[Dojun]

I dont realy agree with the disenchant, money...
If everyone passes everyone should be able to roll...even if it is for money.its people like that, that made me give up enchanting, some guildies expect free/dirt cheap enchantments, then get pissy coz the enchanter gets a item first? thats a joke right?

sorry for the thread hijack lol If its a guild only group then Enchanters get priority. If it is pickup then enchanting = greed.


The only ever enchant that i've had/gonna get is +2 to beast slayin when i was lvl 20 odd off madcat. WTF should i give shit to ppl when IMO its a pointless and stupid profession? we all need money :confused:

I personally think that enchanter should get all BoP that nobody wants(exept if the enchanter is a jerk), it can give some real kick ass shards. And if it is a guild only raid i think that it is obvious that the enchanter should get all non wanted items. Like someone stated above if you give items to the enchanter he will if he is not to greedy give enchantments back. Im trying to supplie Korp with stuff for his enchantments and i get free enchants in turn. It works vry good. Atleast let the enchanted disenchant the BoP item for the shard that is much more valuable then the item itself, if you take greed before need roll on the shard and sell it for a lot more money in the AH

[Hincey]

Hincey, during a raid do you share your farmed goods, i.e leather / ore / flowers...? the items that no1 wants / needs are an enchanters way of gaining their 'ingredients'. and to say you dont recieve enchants is that you probably never ask, or inturn send items to the guild enchanters! its a two-way system!

as grom says weapon unwanted should be greed rolled as they give around 5g vendor, while armour / misc fetches if at all a gold, which is nothing tbh!



I am i Hunter Reb i am never gonnna want an Enchant, and as i've said IMO all the enchants are a waste of time and money.

in response to the 1st reply "do i share farmed goods to help lvl my profession" yea but they are worth piss all compaired + how many times do you see ppl (except Raj and maybe a bit off iron but fk all compaired :p) give me minerals to lvl my Engie? noone does now i know its different for enchanters because the only time the stuff drops to lvl their enchanting in instances but still.

Bottom line is i am down to i having 20g on my main :eek: and why the fuck should i help lvl someones's enchanting when they (as most ppl) have a shit load of gold?

doesnt really matter what i think tho hardly ever doing instances anyway.

[Hincey]

first, Im glad your oppinion isnt one that matters all that much.)


if that was aimed at me who the fuck are you?

[GuardianAnge1]

WTF should i give shit to ppl when IMO its a pointless and stupid profession

think he was reffering to this hincey..

[Ramiraz]

I am ramiraz, pleased to meet you...

and the conception that enchanters have alot of money is mostly wrong IMO. I have normaly no more than around 15 to 20g in my possesion because i spend money on enchanting.

[Carcass]

First of all!!
Get your language proper and right!! (meaning talk NICE 2each-other ;) )
We wouldnt liked being referred to as-->Kindergarden Legion

To Hincey!
If your a Engineer!
You shouldnt lack in Money/Gold IMO
Loads of money to make in AH :)
I still make money with my Warlock every day,to send to my Mage who lacks in Money at the moment though!(own fault!!spend 15g on my fishingpole)
And he dont even leave IF :D

Ill think that all proff. can make some amount of money!
They just have to scaver the AH and see whats selling and whats not(in their proff.)

Snuffs said
The Gipsy Vendor :D

[Fusion]

Hincey why are you so hostile alll of a sudden?

Now I aggree, if the enchanter gets all the BoP items then sells the shards on the AH, I wouldn't be very pleased, but with some enchants costing 50-100g, its hardly unfair to give the enchanter the unwanted blues if you are wanting to get Crusader or Icy Chill for free.

As for leveling Engineering you just need to farm minerals like mad, you won't get any drops for engineering (apart from gems) in instances until BRD / Molten Core.

If you're short of cash, go on some loot runs, I find that I come back 5-10g better off with a couple of greens (sometimes Blue too) which usually nobody wants, so I can stick on the AH or send to be disenchanted.

[Ironman]

I am i Hunter Reb i am never gonnna want an Enchant, and as i've said IMO all the enchants are a waste of time and money.



Hmm why not get some +agi on some of your stuff?

[karkus]

Time of the month Hincey ? :p

"i am never gonnna want an Enchant, and as i've said IMO all the enchants are a waste of time and money."

ok what am i missing here? how can lets say "+7 stam on bracers" be of no use? if u found a item with identical stats to the one u had but with +7 stam u would wear the new item wouldn't u ?

how is +Agi not helpful to you? how is +dmg on wep not helpful to you ?

as for enchanters being rich, thats a complete joke, i am on the verge of stopping enchanting because it has cost me well over 100g so far, doing guild enchants and such

[Hincey]

Hincey why are you so hostile alll of a sudden?


I am being hostile cos a Recruit is tryin to tell me that my "oppinion isnt one that matters", i've been in RL for 2 something years and i'm not about to let someone that has just come into RL tell me that. Although i'm sorry about "And who the fuck are you" comment i aint gonna stand for being told i have no right to voice my oppinion. Especially by a recuit.

@Karkus and Iron asked for an enchant on bracers or gloves loads of times and have given up tryin. Its the only enchant i have ever even remotly wanted but there doesnt ever seem to be any1 that can do it :confused: so have given up tryin.


And i'm sorry if i got ppl's back up but thats the way i feel about enchanting. Fair enough if you think i'm wrong, i aint about to go and try change the rules i am just sayin how i feel which (and although Ramiraz thinks i dont have that entitlement) I do.

[Ramiraz]

I didnt say your oppinion doesnt matter to everyone, but when you where spewing nonsense like that, i feel its in my right to say that it doesnt matter to me...

karkus, enchanting is expensive, it has cost me somewhere near 350 to 400g to get to 290 enchanting.

[faith]

i think if you launch into a mini-tirade in a v hostile fashion u can expect to offend some people - and tbh i dont really see the relevance of 'just a recruit' - there are plenty of good people and plenty of selfish bad attitude people both in 'new' RL and old....

and yup enchanting is expensive - esp when u dont sell shards/enchants - I can see both sides, have spent lot of time grpd with korp - leaving all disenchant for him - sewn tons of items for him - so yup i get the 'freebies' - (and watched some ppl take them and then take the piss.....) tho I've put in more than I can ever take in enchantments - but i also get poor and have to accept his handouts when i need something :o - hence me getting down to 1.6g last nite after raiding both our chars to buy PoF book on AH :confused:

gets tuff sometimes... but hey, its a game - it aint like we are forced to play it :eek:

[Hincey]

I didnt say your oppinion doesnt matter to everyone, but when you where spewing nonsense like that, i feel its in my right to say that it doesnt matter to me...


Then why do you need to type out little comments then if it was just for you? I dont understand


@Karkus why bother editing ur post after i had replyed? the little time of the month comment wasnt there when i posted. If you are tryin piss me off even more ur going the right way about doing it.

@ Faith i dont care who tells me that i cant voice my oppinion i'd tell em the same, recriut or not. But it kinda takes the piss that someone who is not actually even in RL is tellin me that my oppinion is shit and that i cant share it.

[Paradine Hawk]

Time for everyone to kiss and make up me thinks :p

[Ludicrouse]

Who wants to hug me?


Hincey need lubbing.... thats for sure :D

[Ironman]

Hey...

@Paradine Yup I'm in for that.

@Ludi I'll hug you m8. (I kinda the pulled the shortest straw in the hole guild, crap.) ;)

[Ludicrouse]

Shortest Straw?


are you implying something? :p

[Isador]

I tend to agree with Hencey, if I was told the my oppinion didn't matter in the same way, id'e be pissed off too, but that's just me.

In regards to what the thread originally is about, I think the current "rules" are sufficient, especially since 95% of the time I've play with honourable players so I've had any trouble getteing what I needed of whatever droped. Back in the day when I farmed DM and ST I usully lost everything I wantet (for some reason to always Niko :rolleyes: ) but latly I can't complain (What goes around, comes aroud).

I can understand why someone might get frustrated when they again and again loose items they would like and it might be more fair in some siuations to have a set of loot rules, like those mentioned. Taking into consideration what Gromagrim said earlier; should he have passed on an item he needed just becourse he had recived/rolled highest the time before, especially when no one else needed it, except for dis.ent. I think not.

If an item drops that will give me an int upgrade of 2, then sure I'll roll for it, but if some else needs it more (giving him/her an int upgrade of 4) then my all means he/her should get it. Then when something I need more drops, I trust I'll get the item, (what goes around, comes around).

IMO, it's a matter of trusting your fellow guildies, and I have no reason not to.

But that's just me...

[karkus]

well i think its rude to call someones profession worthless and a waste of time .

and the "just a recruit" stuff is crap hincey, thats a fecking awful attitude to take

so u dont wanna give stuff to enchanters, thats up to you and thats cool, but later u mention asking enchanters for a agi and none doing it, well thats a little one way aint it? give nothing but want something in return

sorry for the time of the month comment that was supposed to be tongue in cheek hence the smily

anyway lets move on, everyone is entitled to there views, i think i might have a Agi enchant for gloves i think, so gimme a yell when were both on

Karkus

[Edit] coz i cant spell lol

[Fusion]

I think we can put down Ramiraz's comment down to a poor choice of words -- as far as I know, English isn't his first language so I suggest that we all forget the matter and move on to bigger and better things -- like Onyxia and Molten Core... :)

[Hincey]

I have always stuck to the guild "rules" on enchanters/enchanting because its the way we do things i am not tryin to change that merly tryin to get my point of veiw over.


As i said to Faith b4, its not about him being a recruit its about him sayin that i have no right to my oppinion which i do as he does also. But him being a recruit kinda takes the piss a bit more thats all. And i aint too impressed about it.

We'll agree to disagree.

[Ramiraz]

I can live with that.

Peace Hincey ?

"extends his hand "

[Hincey]

I can live with that.

Peace Hincey ?

"extends his hand "

Done.

Well that was a nice intro into RL wasnt it :rolleyes: